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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9215846" data-attributes="member: 6684958">This does not seem to be what players are compiling about though.&nbsp; And this is still being too lost in the vagueness.&nbsp; Again, this sounds great as a vague statement....but what about game play?Yea, the players want to rob a bank and the DM throws politics at them is an easy 'bad'.&nbsp; I typically have the problem that the player/person will refuse to speak with me.&nbsp; And the few that do get stuck on the vague concepts that don't really make for a conversation.&nbsp; This is a bit of a false thing players think out of context.&nbsp; Sure in an RPG you can do anything, in a vague sense.&nbsp; But when you get down to the game play level of an active game the player can't just alter reality on a whim and 'win' the game.&nbsp; That would not even be a game.&nbsp; Yea, this is the Video Game Problem.&nbsp; The player walks up to the vault and wants to &quot;roll stealth&quot; and get past the guards.&nbsp; So when I explain that the hallway is bare with nothing but the door and the guards, the player gets upset they can't just &quot;roll stealth&quot;.&nbsp; This sounds great in the vague way.&nbsp; However, when the player has their character wander into the nearby town they get all upset they can't just &quot;hire a massive construction crew&quot; to rebuild the castle.&nbsp; And they get upset the town does not have 20,000 stone blocks at Wal Mart (haha) that they can &quot;just buy&quot; and put on their single wagon.&nbsp; I say that a lot.I don't see much difference.I'm on board to &quot;turn anything into an adventure&quot;.&nbsp; But many players are not.The adventure starts, and the players accept to quest.&nbsp; Then, suddenly at random they decide to rob the gambling house where the adventure started.&nbsp; I don't care, so they &quot;try&quot;.&nbsp; They quickly find out the vault is guarded and protected by all sorts of tricks, traps and security.&nbsp; A lot like a typical real world vault.&nbsp; And the vault has no huge easy way in...like an unlocked back door (Yuk Yuk).&nbsp; And the players can't even just 'roll stealth' past the guard dogs.So the players with their default &quot;stumble around&quot; style find it &quot;impossible&quot; to rob the vault.&nbsp; And this is where the &quot;I want my actions to matter whine starts&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9215846, member: 6684958"] This does not seem to be what players are compiling about though. And this is still being too lost in the vagueness. Again, this sounds great as a vague statement....but what about game play? Yea, the players want to rob a bank and the DM throws politics at them is an easy 'bad'. I typically have the problem that the player/person will refuse to speak with me. And the few that do get stuck on the vague concepts that don't really make for a conversation. This is a bit of a false thing players think out of context. Sure in an RPG you can do anything, in a vague sense. But when you get down to the game play level of an active game the player can't just alter reality on a whim and 'win' the game. That would not even be a game. Yea, this is the Video Game Problem. The player walks up to the vault and wants to "roll stealth" and get past the guards. So when I explain that the hallway is bare with nothing but the door and the guards, the player gets upset they can't just "roll stealth". This sounds great in the vague way. However, when the player has their character wander into the nearby town they get all upset they can't just "hire a massive construction crew" to rebuild the castle. And they get upset the town does not have 20,000 stone blocks at Wal Mart (haha) that they can "just buy" and put on their single wagon. I say that a lot. I don't see much difference. I'm on board to "turn anything into an adventure". But many players are not. The adventure starts, and the players accept to quest. Then, suddenly at random they decide to rob the gambling house where the adventure started. I don't care, so they "try". They quickly find out the vault is guarded and protected by all sorts of tricks, traps and security. A lot like a typical real world vault. And the vault has no huge easy way in...like an unlocked back door (Yuk Yuk). And the players can't even just 'roll stealth' past the guard dogs. So the players with their default "stumble around" style find it "impossible" to rob the vault. And this is where the "I want my actions to matter whine starts". [/QUOTE]

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