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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9227766" data-attributes="member: 6684958">It would seem doubtful anyone would post so.  But then no one online ever seems to notice such things.  It's one of those things like Rubbernecking: everyone will swear they would never, ever do it......and YET every single time there is an accident nearly EVERYONE rubbernecks to look...and especially everyone who swore they would "never" do it.This is a big part of the problem.  Though it's a bit odd as most games do have limits in the rules for such things, and might even have text that says "no matter how high the roll is you can never persuade a king to give up the throne and name your character king for life."  I lot of players and many DMs think persuasion is total mind control, that is altering game reality.   Weirdly, only some players will accept their character can't just make a mundane jump over a 100' rift.  The rest fall under the "high roll alter reality" problem and will say if the roll high their character can jump anything the player wants.And why should a DM not just shut down impossible or near impossible thing?  The deluded player thinks "My character will just walk up to the king and the king will give my character 100 billion gold coins".  Is it not just better for the DM to say "no".  Is there anything to be gained by wasting the 10 minutes to role play out the character walking up to the king and the player making a high roll?  The player will sit there and say "my persuasion total is 18, so the king gives my character 100 billion gold coins."And sure the above is a silly extreme....though not above some players delusions.  But for more reasonable things....why is it such a problem for players to accept somethings sometimes might be difficult, hard, very hard, near impossible or impossible.  Why do players get so fixated on everything must be super easy?  I think the DM should describe how well guarded something is....though this won't work too often as many players won't understand anyway.  Few players understand concepts like "security".  Worse is when the group is like a halfling fighter, a half elf arcane archer, a tabaxi barbarian and a human 'death' cleric.  Not exactly a good 'heist' group.  Like the barbarian can do some damage with their claws...but that does not directly help with the heist at all.This does not work for me at all.  I don't want to pause the game every couple of minutes to just "talk" to the players and try to explain things like locked doors and fences to the players.  I get a LOT of games are like this.  They pause the game every couple of minutes to talk...and goof off.  Right but this is the problem.  When talking about vague nothings players will say they "want a challenge", but in the game they will just complain whenever they can't just do an action with easily with no effort.And the connection between players wanting their actions to matter and altering the game reality to make their action matter seems very clear.There are some games that make a big push to make the whole game this Dice First Style.   Though in piratical game play the DM can't just roll the dice first for everything.  Most of the time the DM just needs to decide things on a whim.I guess you can randomly say this and think it's a truth.  But how true is it?  If in your game you have some sort of special houserule that 'adventures' are famous and seen as demigods, that is one thing.  But why would you think it's automatically universal? And if the group of adventures are not 'easy targets', then the game should have no encounters, right?  As all NPCs will just give up as they know they are over matched....Yea, ignore the rules you don't like.  This might be a big part.  Many, many DMs follow the idea of telling the players all the DCs.  It's a typical buddy DM thing to do:  ""ok players the DC is 11, lets roll to see what the dice will tell us what happens".I think this might be the answer.....The bad player types don't role play, pay much attention or immerse themselves in the game world.  They just do stuff at random.So the answer would seem to be to force the players to role play, pay attention, and immerse themselves in the game....even when they don't want too.</blockquote>

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