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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9228013" data-attributes="member: 6684958">That even have die hard supporters right here on the boards too.&nbsp; Amazing how big the 'pockets' are....For an even more fun oddity.....these are the Forever D&amp;D type players.&nbsp; Even suggest another game, and they say &quot;no&quot;.&nbsp; That is the whole point.&nbsp; I game with good players and make myself good players from scratch.&nbsp; Though this still leaves all the 'other' players out there: and half of them can be saved.&nbsp; The hard way of saving gamers takes a lot of time and effort, I was just looking for some ways to help.&nbsp; The problem is:The DM: understands (the fictional) reality and common sense.&nbsp; And that some things might work or fail sometimes.&nbsp; And even if you do everything &quot;right&quot;, you still might fail.&nbsp; The Players: Everything I do must succeed every time for me to have &quot;fun&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp; So see if you don't have the players doing the &quot;must succeed&quot;, then there would never be a problem.&nbsp; When...a lot of the time....when the characters can't or fail to do something.....the players would just accept it.&nbsp; See above.As always, the vague stuff sounds fine.Though this is another alter game reality thing.&nbsp; If the DM drops a 'hook' or any 'game event' or 'encounter' and the players just ignore it: it does not alter the game reality.&nbsp; Like say there is a lich hunting and absorbing necromatic magic items.&nbsp; The players just shrug and ignore this saying &quot;we are not goona take your hook DM&quot;.&nbsp; In a good game, this just leaves the lich 'out there' to be encountered at a later time.&nbsp; What does NOT happen is the DM is forced to alter game reality and say &quot;oh, ok, you guys don't like that hook...so, um, the lich just fades away and never existed&quot;.&nbsp; They don't see to act this way rhough?This seems odd.So if the players just pick a random place to loot.&nbsp; And it's a place the DM has not pre-set anything....then the characters get to auto loot the place?&nbsp;&nbsp; THIS seems to be a common thought among players.&nbsp; There must be a ton of DMs that do this.&nbsp; And guess this little home brew side game makes sense in a all pre-set game.&nbsp; Where the players can go &quot;haha we picked something to do that you did not prepare in pre-set DM and that means we get to auto succeed and get all the loot!&quot;Of course, it falls apart and makes no sense in any game that uses Improv.&nbsp; As the DM will always be making stuff up right in front of the players.I guess I should be more clear on when the players want game reality to be altered on a whim, they want/demand their Buddy DM do so for them.&nbsp; And Buddy DMs can't wait to do whatever the players tell them to do.The DM makes two Elite Royal Tower Guards who are 100% loyal to the royal family.&nbsp; When the characters wander over the players say &quot;We wait for the guards to fall asleep and make a sneak check to get in&quot;.&nbsp; The players WANT the DM to change the guards into Dumb Sleepy Fool Guards.&nbsp; Except it's not fine with most players.&nbsp; Bad players only sometimes even accept rolls.Player: I Persuade the guard to let me loot the vault and get a total of 18.DM: The guard is not persuadedPlayer: What? But I got an 18!And few players ever accept role playing:Player: My character asked how much gold it would take to bribe the guard to kill the kingDM: The guard answers &quot;no price, I will not betray my king&quot;Player- &quot;Waa, no, Everyone has a price!&nbsp; &quot;DM- &quot;Nope, not everyone.&nbsp; Good people do exist in the world&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9228013, member: 6684958"] That even have die hard supporters right here on the boards too. Amazing how big the 'pockets' are.... For an even more fun oddity.....these are the Forever D&D type players. Even suggest another game, and they say "no". That is the whole point. I game with good players and make myself good players from scratch. Though this still leaves all the 'other' players out there: and half of them can be saved. The hard way of saving gamers takes a lot of time and effort, I was just looking for some ways to help. The problem is: The DM: understands (the fictional) reality and common sense. And that some things might work or fail sometimes. And even if you do everything "right", you still might fail. The Players: Everything I do must succeed every time for me to have "fun". So see if you don't have the players doing the "must succeed", then there would never be a problem. When...a lot of the time....when the characters can't or fail to do something.....the players would just accept it. See above. As always, the vague stuff sounds fine. Though this is another alter game reality thing. If the DM drops a 'hook' or any 'game event' or 'encounter' and the players just ignore it: it does not alter the game reality. Like say there is a lich hunting and absorbing necromatic magic items. The players just shrug and ignore this saying "we are not goona take your hook DM". In a good game, this just leaves the lich 'out there' to be encountered at a later time. What does NOT happen is the DM is forced to alter game reality and say "oh, ok, you guys don't like that hook...so, um, the lich just fades away and never existed". They don't see to act this way rhough? This seems odd. So if the players just pick a random place to loot. And it's a place the DM has not pre-set anything....then the characters get to auto loot the place? THIS seems to be a common thought among players. There must be a ton of DMs that do this. And guess this little home brew side game makes sense in a all pre-set game. Where the players can go "haha we picked something to do that you did not prepare in pre-set DM and that means we get to auto succeed and get all the loot!" Of course, it falls apart and makes no sense in any game that uses Improv. As the DM will always be making stuff up right in front of the players. I guess I should be more clear on when the players want game reality to be altered on a whim, they want/demand their Buddy DM do so for them. And Buddy DMs can't wait to do whatever the players tell them to do. The DM makes two Elite Royal Tower Guards who are 100% loyal to the royal family. When the characters wander over the players say "We wait for the guards to fall asleep and make a sneak check to get in". The players WANT the DM to change the guards into Dumb Sleepy Fool Guards. Except it's not fine with most players. Bad players only sometimes even accept rolls. Player: I Persuade the guard to let me loot the vault and get a total of 18. DM: The guard is not persuaded Player: What? But I got an 18! And few players ever accept role playing: Player: My character asked how much gold it would take to bribe the guard to kill the king DM: The guard answers "no price, I will not betray my king" Player- "Waa, no, Everyone has a price! " DM- "Nope, not everyone. Good people do exist in the world". [/QUOTE]

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