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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9228220" data-attributes="member: 6684958">Sure if you use 'railroad' as &quot;anything the DM does the players don't like&quot;.In nearly all cases the bad or worse players will defeat themselves....so no 'railroading' is needed....they will stay on their own Track of Doom.This is not what I experience.&nbsp; If the players are not thinking the must always succeed, then why to they complain so much?Right, this is a perfect example of what I said: Because the players wished something, you as the DM altered the game reality to make it so.&nbsp; The players say &quot;we don't like the demon stuff&quot; and the DM says &quot;yes, players, the demons go away.&quot;I really don't get the point of why you high light the 'demon story' in the back ground.&nbsp; What is the point if it will never effect the game?&nbsp; Sure as part of your DM Novel you can say what is happening far away from the game....but what is the point?Well, one of the Tag Line of my game is that it's Unfair.&nbsp; Maybe players should pay more attention to words.But it's not like a DM can be fair when they outclass their players.&nbsp; I can think of tons of things...but the bad players struggle with even one.&nbsp; One from just a few weeks ago:&nbsp; The players struggle to get into the vault...and find it only has a small amount of loot.&nbsp; Unhappy the players whine and cry about their actions not mattering.&nbsp; And to this day if it get brought up they will whine and cry about it.&nbsp; Of course the simple truth is : there was a hidden vault inside the vault.&nbsp; But the players can't even conceive of that idea.&nbsp; So they never checked....just whined and complained.&nbsp; That sound fine in general.Well, except my game is a full railroad game....I think it does.&nbsp; I'll have to check to be sure......but this seems like a good answer to &quot;Why do players so LOVE to do random things to &quot;surprise&quot; the DM?&quot;&nbsp; I'm not a Buddy DM that is on the players side and a fan of the players and give them endless OOC help.On DC....well I have another thing that hundreds of players and DMs do...and yet &quot;Nobody&quot; here has ever even heard a rumor of it:So the Buddy DM says the DC is 15.Then the players pick the character with the right skill/ability or whatever, with the highest plus and make sure to add the mundane and magic or expertise or advantage or whatever needed to make sure they get that 15.&nbsp; Then they roll and get higher then that 15 needed...amazingly.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9228220, member: 6684958"] Sure if you use 'railroad' as "anything the DM does the players don't like". In nearly all cases the bad or worse players will defeat themselves....so no 'railroading' is needed....they will stay on their own Track of Doom. This is not what I experience. If the players are not thinking the must always succeed, then why to they complain so much? Right, this is a perfect example of what I said: Because the players wished something, you as the DM altered the game reality to make it so. The players say "we don't like the demon stuff" and the DM says "yes, players, the demons go away." I really don't get the point of why you high light the 'demon story' in the back ground. What is the point if it will never effect the game? Sure as part of your DM Novel you can say what is happening far away from the game....but what is the point? Well, one of the Tag Line of my game is that it's Unfair. Maybe players should pay more attention to words. But it's not like a DM can be fair when they outclass their players. I can think of tons of things...but the bad players struggle with even one. One from just a few weeks ago: The players struggle to get into the vault...and find it only has a small amount of loot. Unhappy the players whine and cry about their actions not mattering. And to this day if it get brought up they will whine and cry about it. Of course the simple truth is : there was a hidden vault inside the vault. But the players can't even conceive of that idea. So they never checked....just whined and complained. That sound fine in general. Well, except my game is a full railroad game.... I think it does. I'll have to check to be sure......but this seems like a good answer to "Why do players so LOVE to do random things to "surprise" the DM?" I'm not a Buddy DM that is on the players side and a fan of the players and give them endless OOC help. On DC....well I have another thing that hundreds of players and DMs do...and yet "Nobody" here has ever even heard a rumor of it: So the Buddy DM says the DC is 15. Then the players pick the character with the right skill/ability or whatever, with the highest plus and make sure to add the mundane and magic or expertise or advantage or whatever needed to make sure they get that 15. Then they roll and get higher then that 15 needed...amazingly. [/QUOTE]

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