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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9228922" data-attributes="member: 42582">One of the issues here goes to "no weasels". That is, can the players fish for the DC and then back out? The recommended approach in Burning Wheel is no.So the overall approach is - the GM describes the scene (the drizzle, the wall, its brick-y verticality, and its rain-c.aused slickness); then the player declares their action; then the obstacles is assessed, using the detailed rules for doing so; then the player brings to bear whatever player-side resources they want to (eg appropriate skill(s), gear, traits, artha, etc).As per what I quoted upthread, the obstacle communicates to the player, in game play terms, the challenges the character is facing in the fiction: in this imagined scenario, the obstacle would be Ob 4 (base Ob 3 for the wall, +1 Ob for the drizzle), or Ob 7 (ie a double Ob penalty before modifications) without gear. Generally, in Burning Wheel, any obstacle above 3 is considered tough. The player feels the slickness of the wall in that +1 Ob penalty.Torchbearer 2e takes a similar approach (Scholar's Guide, pp 214-5):The game master paints the world through their descriptions. Players perceive through what the game master describes. . . . Describe the atmosphere and characters’ surroundings in an evocative and economical manner. Don’t describe too much. Provide the bare bones of what the characters can discern with a casual glance, listen, sniff, etc. Neither should the game master tell players, “There’s a problem. It’s Ob 4 to fix it.” Rather, describe the environs, the sounds and the smells. Give hints and goad the players into action, then ask them, “What do you do?” . . . Let the players describe their characters’ interactions with the surroundings. Once they reach a point where they are in danger or where forward progress is blocked by an obstacle, call on them to test a skill or ability. . . . Once you call for a test, the players are committed. The player making the test should gather dice for the skill or ability being called for. Players who described their help and who have a skill or wise relevant to the test should add their helping dice. Anyone who described helping is committed. No backsies.I think 4e D&D works best approached in a similar fashion: with the player decision-making focused on overcoming this obstacle that the GM has framed and the player has had their PC interact with (and using powers, action points, etc), rather than back-and-forth haggling over DCs and approaches and the game never actually moving.</blockquote>

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