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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 9230011" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Expert climber is a world away from intermediate (and world class is another step change from that).  Intermediate climbers can read pitches, routes, etc with very high proficiency, they just don’t have the technical chops and physical prowess to send them.  I'm one of these people.  I'm sure it means nothing to you (see below screen snips for reference), but on the YDS scale, I can climb several 5.11a-d, and the stray 5.12a that is in my technical and physical wheelhouse.  On the v-scale, I can climb most every V4 and some V5s that are in my technical and physical wheelhouse.  Despite those climbs putting me squarely in intermediate territory, I can still read/develop the appropriate route beta for climbs all the way up to world class level.  I know what I'm looking at...I just can't send the climb because of my technical and physical limitations.  Hence, I can, with a high degree of precision, nail down the difficulty of individual sequences and a climb holistically; in D&D-ville that equals "nail down a DC."Level 3 Fighters are routinely fighting lions and animals that would eviscerate me (despite the reality that I'm an expert grappler).  They're doing that because of their physical prowess and cognitive tools (which technique amplifies...but you are not killing a lion in physical combat without basically superhuman physical prowess and mental processing/confidence)....which directly translates to capability in climbing.  A level 3 Fighter with 18 strength and proficiency in Athletics is should absolutely be my equal in climbing, bare minimum; almost surely my better.  Hence, any Fighter in D&D world with Athletics (which is basically all of them from 3.x, 4e, and 5e?) should be the equivalent of an intermediate climber bare minimum.  As such, D&D Fighters should be possessed of the cognitive tools/skillset to read most every climb they encounter. They just may not be possessed of the technical chops or physical prowess to send them.  By level 9-11, when 5e Fighters are sporting 20s in Strength and +4 Prof Athletics, they should be surpassing me in climbing (at least cognitively and physically if not technically...though likely technically as well) like I'm standing still.  To someone who doesn't know what an Expert level climber looks like (forget World Class and the absolutely tail of that distribution), they're doing freaky stuff that you probably think is impossible.[ATTACH=full]341982[/ATTACH][ATTACH=full]341983[/ATTACH]</blockquote>

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