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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9233638" data-attributes="member: 93670">No.  Nothing you are claiming is accurate.  What few bits there that come close are rooted in other misunderstandings misstatements & gaps in knowledge of the rules. The phb was only referenced because of your desire to elevate it to some word of God status and the fact that it almost immediately removes itself from relevance wrt assigning of DCs as I pointed out.  DCs didn't work like 5e.  A DC 25 only requires +5 on top of taking 20.  Taking 20 however imposes q hurdle of its own as follows[Spoiler="taking 20"]Taking 20: When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20. Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take. Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure (for instance, a Disable Device check to disarm a trap), your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task (in this case, the character would most likely set off the trap). Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search. For example, Krusk comes to a cliff face. He attempts to take 10, for a result of 16 (10 plus his +6 skill modifier), but the DC is 20, and the DM tells him that he fails to make progress up the cliff. (His check is at least high enough that he does not fall.) Krusk cannot take 20 because there is a penalty associated with failure (falling, in this case). He can try over and over, and eventually he may succeed, but he might fall one or more times in the process. Later, Krusk finds a cave in the cliff and searches it. The DM sees in the Search skill description that each 5-foot-square area takes a full-round action to search, and she secretly assigns a DC of 15 to the attempt. She estimates that the floors, walls, and ceiling of the cave make up about ten 5-foot squares, so she tells Krusk’s player that it takes 1 minute (10 rounds) to search the whole cave. Krusk’s player gets a result of 12 on 1d20, adds no skill ranks because Krusk doesn’t have the Search skill, and adds –1 because that is Krusk’s Intelligence modifier. His roll fails. Now the player declares that Krusk is going to search the cavern high and low, taking as long as it takes. The DM takes the original time of 1 minutes and multiplies it by 20, for 20 minutes. That’s how long it takes for Krusk to search the whole cave in exacting detail. Now Krusk’s player treats his roll as if it were 20, for a result of 19. That’s good enough to beat the DC of 15, and Krusk finds an old, bronze key discarded under a loose rock. [/Spoiler]What that means is that in order for someone with a +5 to a 20 without rolling the party needs to work towards a state where time and outside pressures are not a concern.  Reliably hitting DC25 only takes a few ranks (5 max) depending on the PC's relevant ability mod.</blockquote>

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