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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Steampunkette" data-source="post: 9256714" data-attributes="member: 6796468">Okay... I'm gonna throw something out there that I'm sure you don't wanna hear:In Class Based Game Systems, like D&D, classes are an important structure for TTRPG players in the same way that large building blocks typically precede tiny and fiddly Lego sets. (That's not to say you can't play with building blocks forever and have a great time with it, just that most people work their way up rather than starting with a 2,000 piece K'nex set to build a working motor)In a CBGS you use large building blocks to create characters. Race, Class, Subclass, Background, Skills, done. Yes, there are a lot of individual choices in each of those five categories, but it's a streamlined mechanical structure compared to, say, GURPS. For all the variety of character types and flavors, each character is basically made up of those five categories. And aside from the Skills category, you get -one- choice for the other four.It may help to imagine a sort of spectrum between rigid character selection and totally freeform design. I'll put that into a spoiler block in case you don't wanna read a ton of text...[SPOILER="Rigid to Freeform explanation"]In a rigid character selection you're making practically no choices for your character except which one you want to play. Videogames typically have this structure, such as Street Fighter 2 or Mortal Kombat. You may get to pick a different color-profile or outfit for your character, but you're still playing Guile no matter how tall his hair is. TTRPGs with Pregen characters are also basically this format. It's simple, it's fast, it gets you into the game ASAP. It's why Starter Boxes have pregen characters in them where you're stuck with whatever the designers put into the box.Branching out from that slightly you get games where the characters are fixed, but you get to select your powers from a skill tree. Something like Diablo 2. There's customization of how the character plays, but you're still playing one of the pre-generated characters.Then you get into stuff like MMORPGs that are CBGS. Things like World of Warcraft. This is generally a similar level of customization of character to, say, old school D&D. You pick your race and class and you're good to go.Next comes actual CBGS TTRPGs like D&D. You're able to build your character in a more fiddly way, from a wider variety of choices, but you still really just have the five categories to build from and a couple of them (Race, Class) do the bulk of telling you what your character is in the world and how they're capable of interacting with it. The various Baldur's Gate games are like this, but so are some action-adventure RPGs.But then you go beyond D&D and CBGS to Framework based game systems. You still have a "Class", but it's a much looser structure and you're basically building your own version of the class. Pathfinder 2e where every class ability is a feat-choice is an example of an FBGS. City of Heroes is similar, because you're stuck with your archetype but you're picking powersets, individual powers, and then how those individual powers get enhanced.Then you get into structured freeform games. This is things like most of the White Wolf character sheets. You don't have a specific class but instead a collection of curated abilities with point values that you combine to achieve tasks. You still have at least one major choice that limits your character options (What kind of Vampire/Werewolf/Etc you are unlocks specific ability groupings) but mostly you're in command of any given aspect. SPORE is kinda like this, too.And then absolute freeform. This is your GURPS, your Point Buy systems that have nothing locked up or bound in individual "Blocks". You've gone from having practically no choice to having all the choices. There are no truly freeform videogames because it's practically impossible to make. The closest you get is Cyberpunk 2077, but I'd argue that's structured freeform.[/SPOILER]It really sounds like your players are all in for what D&D is at it's core, a CBGS. They want to engage on it at -that- level. They understand the world and the system through the blocks and they're aware of the rough shape and size of those blocks. They know how to put something together, and want to build... And instead of giving them the blocks, you're asking them to describe the blocks as vaguely as possible before you're willing to give them the blocks."I have a bucket of building blocks. And I will decide which blocks you get. But first you have to tell me what color, size, and shape the building blocks you want are. No. You can't look into the bucket to see what colors and shapes are available. Just tell me what you want and then you can have it if it's in the bucket!"That's not fun when people want to just play with the blocks.It really sounds like you want to run a structured freeform game, where there's some loose structures but it's mostly just "Pick everything!". And that's not what D&D is. And that's not the expectations your players have.Let them play with the blocks they have available to them until they're ready to start reshaping the blocks to better fit... and then move to the next system freeform level. Or, y'know... get deeply invested into Homebrewing.</blockquote>

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