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<blockquote data-quote="Anguish" data-source="post: 4835643" data-attributes="member: 27032">Failing a saving throw to disbelieve doesn't leave you believing?!?I think the consensus here is that how the situation unfolded is -itself- fishy.&nbsp; How your PCs obtained the information that the kama was missing and indeed why it was missing is important.&nbsp; What was said and asked, and in exactly what order is all important.&nbsp; It's quite possible that mistakes were made on both sides of the table.&nbsp; It's quite possible the DM was trying to railroad your party to salvage a plot point, which is bad.&nbsp; It's quite possible the players were unable to rationalize the results of their dice rolls, which is bad.I think the only valuable take-away I can offer here is this; illusion spells don't control how your characters behave.&nbsp; Instead, they control your character's perception of reality.&nbsp; It is up to the player to incorporate a perception they know is false (or even strongly suspect is false) into an imaginary world-view and determine how their PC behaves.If your example's gnome illusionist &quot;summons&quot; his ogre and your PC is skeptical, it would be reasonable to say &quot;I go up to the ogre and poke it in the eye&quot;.&nbsp; The DM asks for a saving throw.&nbsp; You roll a natural 1.&nbsp; Your character fails to disbelieve.&nbsp; He believes the ogre isn't an illusion.&nbsp; Now it's up to you to role-play honestly.&nbsp; &quot;I apologise to the gnome for whatever I did to make him summon a real ogre for once, and congratulate him on finally figuring out how to use a summon spell instead of the usual pathetic illusions.&nbsp; I further congratulate him on making it look completely convincingly as if he was casting an illusion.&nbsp; Then I back away from the ogre before it eats me.&quot;Illusions don't control you.&nbsp; They influence you.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Anguish, post: 4835643, member: 27032"] Failing a saving throw to disbelieve doesn't leave you believing?!? I think the consensus here is that how the situation unfolded is -itself- fishy. How your PCs obtained the information that the kama was missing and indeed why it was missing is important. What was said and asked, and in exactly what order is all important. It's quite possible that mistakes were made on both sides of the table. It's quite possible the DM was trying to railroad your party to salvage a plot point, which is bad. It's quite possible the players were unable to [I]rationalize[/I] the results of their dice rolls, which is bad. I think the only valuable take-away I can offer here is this; illusion spells don't control how your characters behave. Instead, they control your character's perception of reality. It is up to the player to incorporate a perception they know is false (or even strongly suspect is false) into an imaginary world-view and determine how their PC behaves. If your example's gnome illusionist "summons" his ogre and your PC is skeptical, it would be reasonable to say "I go up to the ogre and poke it in the eye". The DM asks for a saving throw. You roll a natural 1. Your character fails to disbelieve. He believes the ogre isn't an illusion. Now it's up to you to role-play honestly. "I apologise to the gnome for whatever I did to make him summon a real ogre for once, and congratulate him on finally figuring out how to use a summon spell instead of the usual pathetic illusions. I further congratulate him on making it look completely convincingly as if he was casting an illusion. Then I back away from the ogre before it eats me." Illusions don't control you. They influence you. [/QUOTE]

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