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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dross" data-source="post: 4842869" data-attributes="member: 33802">A few points here:*A: If this is what you have done previously then searching should be fine. But again I'll ask: At what point do you then accept that there is NOT a secret door there?*1 To fully compare the two, don't you need to add: I've failed my search, but there is absolutely no way/solution/explanation OTHER than a secret door to be there, therefore there is a secret door here somewhere.Or is the fact that there is a missing kama considered overwhelming evidence that the body is an illusion? I know it is evidence that something might be screwy around here but illusion is only one possible answer.*2: Then why wait until after the failed save to detect magic? From your posts it is only AFTER the missing kama is noticed and then AFTER the will save failed have you done anything to prove that the body is an illusion. All fears that this was not the body, that this is an illusion, certainly not some other trick come after the failed save. Given that it seems you were expecting a trick, that the body was thought to be a fake (from later posts), it seems very strange that every attempt to check for such tricks happened after the failed save, and the only attempts to find what was going on were aimed at the trick being an illusion (from your first post).That is where the calls of metagaming are coming in.To me, the only way this might not be metagaming is if illusion is the only trick the the DM EVER tries. The PCs are then fine to say: the only trick we encounter is illusions, so if this is an illusion (on the kama, on the body) detect magic will reveal it.*3 Possibly, but I don't feel that is a reasonable argument because:This is the central issue: the timing of actions, cause and effect. (Don't think I'm making a strong case on this point <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/blush.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":blush:" title="Blush    :blush:" data-shortname=":blush:" />).*4 Not all actions, just actions specifically to determine that the body is in fact an illusion. Several posters have said: Search for the kama with detect magic: <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. Search for secret compartments for the kama:<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. Something is definitely not right, how do we figure out what is going on? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. This has got to be an illusion <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/ponder.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":hmm:" title="Hmmm    :hmm:" data-shortname=":hmm:" />.Something that hasn't been bought up yet. How do the PC's it is a magical kama? My assumption would be because it had some magical properties that make it obvious such as shedding light, flaming or similar properties?</blockquote>

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