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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rafe" data-source="post: 4864685" data-attributes="member: 67395">Though this thread may have run its course already, I think the bigger picture has been missed in the discussion ranging over these 9 pages.There's a sarcophagus next to him.  The party and the vampire fight.  The vampire clearly doesn't "die" (as said above) since it went into gaseous form to go into the sarcophagus.Here's the real thing:  The DM didn't screw up the Will save stuff (though it should never have come to that), and metagaming shouldn't have even become an issue.  The DM should have played the vampire as being clever, which vampires are.  He didn't.  The DM metagamed, or gambled in the hopes to do so.What creature, sentient or not, would escape by traveling five feet, into a stone box and lay down to be killed?  Forget the kama.  It would have been an additional piece of proof, but the real issue was that the DM wanted the players to get screwed by the illusion even though no one would have been.The obvious assumption is that the vampire's not in the coffin.  No Will save for the illusion.  It's completely ridiculous for the DM to have thought the PCs would be fooled.  They all had a huge reason to be disbelieving.Had the DM wanted to mess with them via an illusion, he'd have had the vampire escape in gaseous form into a room under the throne (holes in the floor or a grate).  The vampire can get down there faster than the PCs can, easily.  When the PCs get down, the room is empty, but there's a poorly concealed secret door (low DC).  The PCs go through it.  Too bad the vampire went through a second one in the room that was actually well hidden.  At the end of a short corridor the PCs have gone into via the secret door is a small room with a sarcophagus.  In that is the illusion.  That would be believed, until interacted with.  However, by that point, the vampire is way ahead of the party, and the party still has to find something they missed, which could have been nothing more than a crack in a wall.  No secret door, nothing.  Just a crack through which the gaseous vampire could pass.  The PCs have no clue and the DM hasn't given any hints.The scenario the DM gave was simply not believable.  No Will save.  No metagaming.  The PCs had great reason to think it was fake.  The players thought it was fake.  The DM started blocking their attempts to discover what was happening because he failed to plan and wanted mechanics to screw the players, hoping for failed Will saves to cover him.  Hell, he didn't even want to allow Will saves initially.What proceeded from that was players vs DM, not player info vs PC info.</blockquote>

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