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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 5069353" data-attributes="member: 710">My internal guidelines for DCs in 4E is also to consider what "level" the challenge should be. Just as you have an effective encounter level based on numbers and levels of monsters. So a 8th level group doesn't necessarily get a 8th level skill challenge, just like it won't always get a 8th level combat encounter.One of the biggest challenges using 3E is that there is a far wider gap between "untrained and bad ability score for skill" and "maximally trained, with feat, synergies and magic items". This makes it hard to predict which DCs will actually seem as a challenge, and which DCs will simply be too hard, and which players can actually contribute to a challenge.*I guess one way to deal with this is to provide a wide range of possible DCs. One of the very low DCs might just be suitable to get a support. One of the really high DCs might get you extra successes, secondary benefits, negate failures or similar things. To ensure that a single person with the best skill modifier is not the only one participating in the challenge, introduce aspects where mutliple members of the party have to contribute.One concept found in some published 4E skill challenges is the "group check". Every party member has to roll, and if the majority succeeds, the party gains a success (or at least no failure), and if the majority fails, the party gains a failure. You could set multiple DCs for such a group challenge.Check Result 0-10: Counts as a two failuresCheck Result 11-15: Counts as one failureCheck Result 16-25: Counts as one successCheck Result 26-35 or more: Counts as two succesesSubtract failures from successes, if the count is positive, the party succeeds at the task. Another way might be to have "prerequisite" checks. Maybe you can attempt a Diplomacy Check only after someone else succeeded his Knowledge (History) Check unveiling a certian fact. The latter check might be easier or it might just be that the Wizard can do it but the Silver Tongued Rogue probably can't. The check doesn't actually grant a success (or failure), but it opens a new way to gain successes and failures. Kinda like a "buff" or "move to flank" action in combat.*)Disparities over time: 3E maxed charackter: 23 ranks, +12 ability (Ability Score 18 +5 level increases +6 enhancement + 5 inherent = 34), +3 skill focus, +2 synergy, +2 skill boosting feat, +10 from a magical item => +52 modifier vs a -7 modifier from the untrained guy with the heavy armor. (or just -1 if we ignore armor for a moment). And 23 vs 52 if someone just has maxed his skill ranks but not his item and ability score selection. 4E can also allows a large disparity. Something between  -3 (armor Check Penalty, Ability Score 8) to +15 (Skill Training, Skill  Focus, Racial Bonus, Ability Score 20) can be possible at 1st level,  and the difference can increase by a few points over 30 levels thanks to  the presence of magic items and ability improvements (low end +12, high  end about +40)It doesnt reach the same difference as 3E, but it is still big and the revised skill challenge DCs pose no challenge for the optimzied character.</blockquote>

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