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<blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 627499" data-attributes="member: 2020">More Replies to RepliesTo Echohawk&nbsp; Echohawk posted&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Homer voice: Mmmmmmmmmmmm.... Paranoia.&nbsp; Now there's a game I'd like to see a d20 version of &nbsp; Comment&nbsp; So would I.&nbsp; Paranoia is a blast.&nbsp; My character earned the ultimate reward any Troubleshooter can earn.&nbsp; For you see, he was immersed in liquified petroleum, and was thus compelled to shout:&nbsp; Nobody light a match!&nbsp; They lit no matches.&nbsp; They started in with the Flamethrowers instead.&nbsp; Vaporization.&nbsp; Ah, sweet Nirvana, the ultimate reward for the peerless Troubleshooter!&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Incidentally, I had the best Paranoia gamemaster I think southeastern Michigan has ever had.&nbsp; To avoid a fight over the matter, and to protect his privacy, I won't name names.&nbsp; Those who played in his Paranoia games, will know of whom I speak!&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; (When the noise level is 110 decibels for 10 straight hours, from delighted players, you know something is going on there ... hehehehehe ...)&nbsp; - - -&nbsp; To Megamania&nbsp; Megamania posted:&nbsp; Movies and books are tightly controlled by the writer. As such the heroes will always succeed.&nbsp; Comment&nbsp; My older brother had a saying about that:&nbsp; The Bad Guys are always winning until the writer makes them lose.&nbsp; My older brother also said:&nbsp; The Bad Guys should always win but the writer always makes them lose.&nbsp; And my older brother, was right.&nbsp; Posted&nbsp; Real life- Heroes are killed before court, die in burning buildings...etc&nbsp; D&amp;D is a mix. The DM must CREATE a moment for heroism then the PCs must do it....and not role a 1.&nbsp; I understand what you mean however. This is one of the reasons I liked the game &quot;Torg&quot; from the late eighties/early nineties. It encouraged and gave rewards for being heroic.&nbsp; Comment&nbsp; When Real Life gets into the game (and it DOES get in ... or at least, it got in in those games I played in - never in those I ran, as the IR would prove) then the Game goes awry.&nbsp; Why shouldn't it go awry in such cases?&nbsp; Real Life and the game have nothing in common, except for the players themselves.&nbsp; &nbsp; I see you mention Dark Sun characters in your signature, including Rajaat.&nbsp; I must admit that Dark Sun is a place that makes for difficult heroics.&nbsp; If any setting ever created made heroism difficult, that setting did.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; - - -&nbsp; To Ascending Crane&nbsp;&nbsp; Ascending Crane posted:&nbsp; Methinks Edena needs a good D&amp;D group, of all new players. &nbsp; Or something.&nbsp; The magic isn't in the paper, or the ink, or the dice - it's in the minds and imagination of the players and the DM.&nbsp; Comment&nbsp; YES to the second!&nbsp; Give me my IR players any day, though.&nbsp; They were, and are, top notch players.&nbsp; Posted&nbsp; It sounds like you've lost it somewhere along the way.&nbsp; Comment&nbsp; LOL!&nbsp; Heh.&nbsp; I think my former DMs lost it (not you, Zouron!)&nbsp; &nbsp; (said dead seriously)&nbsp; They got too bogged down, too set in their thinking, and certainly too interested in keeping their campaign worlds staid and set in stone, as unchangeable as the Firmaments of Reality. &nbsp; - - -&nbsp; To Ranger&nbsp; Ranger posted:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Well, I'd like to think you can reward XP for heroic acts in D&amp;D, albeit not a standard rule but more like a suggestion in the DMG. Then again, almost everything in the Dungeon Masters' Guide are guidelines, suggestions, and variant rules for DM to introduce in the game.&nbsp; Comment:&nbsp; I think you are quite right.&nbsp; Experience points were originally awarded for killing things, and now for overcoming challenges on a tactical level.&nbsp; Why not experience for heroism?&nbsp; Or villainry?&nbsp; Or just plain good roleplaying (and I mean REAL experience for that, not minor handouts), or even for specific things (such as falling in love, perhaps?&nbsp; That's not so easy a thing for a character to do!)&nbsp; PostedYou are right, the DM has to create opportunity for the PC to shine, but that's half the ingredient. The players has to be able to pick up and seize the opportunity, or out of the blue come up with a risky plan. After all, a heroic act usually involves some high risks.&nbsp; Hence the saying &quot;you are either brave or foolish.&quot;&nbsp; Comment&nbsp; Yes, the player must get involved.&nbsp; And, the other players must not crap on that player for so-called stupid acts.&nbsp; And, the DM must not punish that player for what he thinks are stupid acts.&nbsp; I've seen both happen, to me and to many others who wanted a little heroism.&nbsp; - - -&nbsp; To Mark&nbsp; Mark posted:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; It's been said above in a number of ways, but not, IMO, inclusively enough. It's not the game system that brings Heroism to the game, it is the Players, the DM and the Setting. &nbsp; That said, there are certainly any number of ways that Heroism can manifest itself within a single game or campaign. I'd venture to guess that if you are not finding Heroism in your game, you either need to get on the same wavelength with your DM (which is not always possible) or adjust the setting in which you play.&nbsp; Hope that helps! &nbsp; Comment:&nbsp; I wish I had had ENWorld, back when I played regularly.&nbsp; I am sure I would have found a lot of top notch DMs here, like yourself and others who have replied to this thread.&nbsp; In those days, there was no Internet, and at the local gaming group only two or three DMs, and you had to accept what was offered.&nbsp; Potluck, as it were.&nbsp; &nbsp; It's a different world now.&nbsp; - - -&nbsp; To Bihor&nbsp; Bihor posted:&nbsp; I had players in Dark Sun, playing lowlife elven thief group, orgenising ilegal gladiator mach sometime fixted. Even though it wasn't there style, they did heroic things.&nbsp; Once they where in front of a almost dead dragon-king, I think it was Nibane, the gladiator and the fire-cleric desided to take a shot a him. They took only 3 steps and met a air invisible elemental. With there two best fighters out in a sigle round they gamble there way out with the two almost corps.&nbsp; The players made there caracter heroic, even in a world with no hero.&nbsp; Comment:&nbsp; (solemn look)&nbsp; I know the Dark Sun setting well.&nbsp; If your players managed to create true heroes in that setting, you have some really fine players.&nbsp; Tell them I said so.&nbsp; And it reflects well on you as a DM, for they could not accomplish such without you.&nbsp; Even I would not attempt to play a heroic character in Dark Sun.&nbsp; It does not seem like there is any place for them (did you know, folks, that the paladin is not a character class in that setting?&nbsp; The GOOD GUYS in Dark Sun practice slavery, butchery, racism (of the most ghastly kind), cannibalism, and violence of the most wretched sort.&nbsp; The bad guys ... well, the truly bad guys in Dark Sun rival the Darklords of Ravenloft ...)&nbsp; &nbsp; - - -&nbsp; To Voneth&nbsp; Voneth posted:&nbsp; &nbsp; Like a 1st level PC in D&amp;D can choose to be coward and self-preserving or be heroic.&nbsp; Yeah they can, but I bet the coward lives longer. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Comment:&nbsp; I admit, it's harder to be heroic when you have 4 hit points and an Armor Class of 15.&nbsp; Most of my low level characters focused on survival.&nbsp; Heroism came later (does this mean heroism is a luxury of the high level character?&nbsp; I hope not ...)&nbsp; Being a 1st level paladin (or anything of the like) is especially difficult.&nbsp; &nbsp; ... Yeah, that's right, Fighto, you get up there and kill those 20 orcs!&nbsp; &nbsp; Yeah, I'll do that!&nbsp; Nevermind I have 1 hit point left.&nbsp; &nbsp; FOR THE GLORY OF IT ALL, AND FOR THE CAUSE OF GOOD, CHARGE! ...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Edena_of_Neith, post: 627499, member: 2020"] [b]More Replies to Replies[/b] To Echohawk Echohawk posted Homer voice: Mmmmmmmmmmmm.... Paranoia. Now there's a game I'd like to see a d20 version of Comment So would I. Paranoia is a blast. My character earned the ultimate reward any Troubleshooter can earn. For you see, he was immersed in liquified petroleum, and was thus compelled to shout: Nobody light a match! They lit no matches. They started in with the Flamethrowers instead. Vaporization. Ah, sweet Nirvana, the ultimate reward for the peerless Troubleshooter! Incidentally, I had the best Paranoia gamemaster I think southeastern Michigan has ever had. To avoid a fight over the matter, and to protect his privacy, I won't name names. Those who played in his Paranoia games, will know of whom I speak! :) (When the noise level is 110 decibels for 10 straight hours, from delighted players, you know something is going on there ... hehehehehe ...) - - - To Megamania Megamania posted: Movies and books are tightly controlled by the writer. As such the heroes will always succeed. Comment My older brother had a saying about that: The Bad Guys are always winning until the writer makes them lose. My older brother also said: The Bad Guys should always win but the writer always makes them lose. And my older brother, was right. Posted Real life- Heroes are killed before court, die in burning buildings...etc D&D is a mix. The DM must CREATE a moment for heroism then the PCs must do it....and not role a 1. I understand what you mean however. This is one of the reasons I liked the game "Torg" from the late eighties/early nineties. It encouraged and gave rewards for being heroic. Comment When Real Life gets into the game (and it DOES get in ... or at least, it got in in those games I played in - never in those I ran, as the IR would prove) then the Game goes awry. Why shouldn't it go awry in such cases? Real Life and the game have nothing in common, except for the players themselves. I see you mention Dark Sun characters in your signature, including Rajaat. I must admit that Dark Sun is a place that makes for difficult heroics. If any setting ever created made heroism difficult, that setting did. - - - To Ascending Crane Ascending Crane posted: Methinks Edena needs a good D&D group, of all new players. Or something. The magic isn't in the paper, or the ink, or the dice - it's in the minds and imagination of the players and the DM. Comment YES to the second! Give me my IR players any day, though. They were, and are, top notch players. Posted It sounds like you've lost it somewhere along the way. Comment LOL! Heh. I think my former DMs lost it (not you, Zouron!) (said dead seriously) They got too bogged down, too set in their thinking, and certainly too interested in keeping their campaign worlds staid and set in stone, as unchangeable as the Firmaments of Reality. - - - To Ranger Ranger posted: Well, I'd like to think you can reward XP for heroic acts in D&D, albeit not a standard rule but more like a suggestion in the DMG. Then again, almost everything in the Dungeon Masters' Guide are guidelines, suggestions, and variant rules for DM to introduce in the game. Comment: I think you are quite right. Experience points were originally awarded for killing things, and now for overcoming challenges on a tactical level. Why not experience for heroism? Or villainry? Or just plain good roleplaying (and I mean REAL experience for that, not minor handouts), or even for specific things (such as falling in love, perhaps? That's not so easy a thing for a character to do!) Posted You are right, the DM has to create opportunity for the PC to shine, but that's half the ingredient. The players has to be able to pick up and seize the opportunity, or out of the blue come up with a risky plan. After all, a heroic act usually involves some high risks. Hence the saying "you are either brave or foolish." Comment Yes, the player must get involved. And, the other players must not crap on that player for so-called stupid acts. And, the DM must not punish that player for what he thinks are stupid acts. I've seen both happen, to me and to many others who wanted a little heroism. - - - To Mark Mark posted: It's been said above in a number of ways, but not, IMO, inclusively enough. It's not the game system that brings Heroism to the game, it is the Players, the DM and the Setting. That said, there are certainly any number of ways that Heroism can manifest itself within a single game or campaign. I'd venture to guess that if you are not finding Heroism in your game, you either need to get on the same wavelength with your DM (which is not always possible) or adjust the setting in which you play. Hope that helps! Comment: I wish I had had ENWorld, back when I played regularly. I am sure I would have found a lot of top notch DMs here, like yourself and others who have replied to this thread. In those days, there was no Internet, and at the local gaming group only two or three DMs, and you had to accept what was offered. Potluck, as it were. It's a different world now. - - - To Bihor Bihor posted: I had players in Dark Sun, playing lowlife elven thief group, orgenising ilegal gladiator mach sometime fixted. Even though it wasn't there style, they did heroic things. Once they where in front of a almost dead dragon-king, I think it was Nibane, the gladiator and the fire-cleric desided to take a shot a him. They took only 3 steps and met a air invisible elemental. With there two best fighters out in a sigle round they gamble there way out with the two almost corps. The players made there caracter heroic, even in a world with no hero. Comment: (solemn look) I know the Dark Sun setting well. If your players managed to create true heroes in that setting, you have some really fine players. Tell them I said so. And it reflects well on you as a DM, for they could not accomplish such without you. Even I would not attempt to play a heroic character in Dark Sun. It does not seem like there is any place for them (did you know, folks, that the paladin is not a character class in that setting? The GOOD GUYS in Dark Sun practice slavery, butchery, racism (of the most ghastly kind), cannibalism, and violence of the most wretched sort. The bad guys ... well, the truly bad guys in Dark Sun rival the Darklords of Ravenloft ...) - - - To Voneth Voneth posted: Like a 1st level PC in D&D can choose to be coward and self-preserving or be heroic. Yeah they can, but I bet the coward lives longer. Comment: I admit, it's harder to be heroic when you have 4 hit points and an Armor Class of 15. Most of my low level characters focused on survival. Heroism came later (does this mean heroism is a luxury of the high level character? I hope not ...) Being a 1st level paladin (or anything of the like) is especially difficult. ... Yeah, that's right, Fighto, you get up there and kill those 20 orcs! Yeah, I'll do that! Nevermind I have 1 hit point left. FOR THE GLORY OF IT ALL, AND FOR THE CAUSE OF GOOD, CHARGE! ... [/QUOTE]

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