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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 634455" data-attributes="member: 2020">To WilliamPosted by William   William Ronald   Member   Registered: Jan 2002   Location: Summit, IL, USA   Posts: 1364  Edena, welcome back again!  Heroism is a choice and can be expressed in many different ways. For example, the paladin you mentioned is heroic to perhaps the point of foolhardiness in the eyes of some.  However, he is someone that most players would want as an ally to rally troops in a battle.   The issue of stealth can be a sensitive one for paladins. I tend to think of stealth as something a paladin will use or tolerate in order to save lives -- besides his own. He may be willing to help sneak past a dragon to save an innocent, but he should be planning for the day when he will smite the beast. Similarly, if he has to use a back entrance to reach a blackguard, I expect a paladin will personally challenge his foe face to face.  What matters is the readiness of a hero to fight and, if need be, die for their beliefs.  There are different sorts of heroism. I have played a few characters who sacrificed their own lives to defeat tyrants and save the lives of friends. My DM has usually rewarded players for such sacrifices, as they add depth to the game.  So, I think the problem lies not in the game but in the players. Maybe what you need are a few heroic players.  To William from Edena  I made a mistake in that I implied that only my brand of heroism, was heroic.  Let me correct that now.  There are many kinds of heroism, and when I say I wish D&D was more heroic I am referring to my experiences only, with a few players who are not representative of the gaming whole (especially, not representative of people like those in the IR, who were several major cuts better as players than those in my far past), and by heroism I was referring to my definition of heroism only, and how I was frustrated in efforts to play heroic characters as I saw them.  However, I merely observe, and do not engage in self-pity.  I observe that in my far past, I had trouble finding players and DMs who enjoyed playing along with my style, when I played what I thought of as heroic characters.  (shrugs)  Hey, that's how it was.   So I had some trouble long ago.  Big deal.   People like those in the IR, were so incredibly fun to play with, and the memories so grand, that a few stumblings earlier on are dwarfed, and the better memories shine like the day.  As for Osilovar, he was your stereotypical foolish Let's Charge In and Whack the Bad Guys kind of paladin.  I had a paladin who was very philosophical and thought out named Anora, Defender of the Veil.  But Osilovar was more about simple rough-and-tumble fun.  A go-get-em character.  If Osilovar's concept was strong, it was strong in that is what he was.  He was not more than that, but he was not less either.  Osilovar would have gotten along as well with the classic cautious elves walking noiselessly and unseen through the woodlands, as a banker would get along with a crowd of kender.  But when in the company of Big Bad Barbarians, ready to Hurl the Axe, then follow up with the Sword (who needs that magic stuff?  Bah!  Tricks and deceptions.  Give me a good blade!), then Osilovar was in his element.  Anora, on the other hand, has the attitude of Whatever It Takes to Win, SO LONG AS (insert here such things as:  Innocents are not hurt, no collateral damage, no evil magic (black necromancy), etc.)  Anora, would use poison (GASP!) to kill the foe.  Anora, would not hesitate to strike down an enemy with arrows.  Anora, would not hesitate to Lightning Bolt an unaware (and defenseless) enemy.  But if you ask Anora to harm someone because they might be an enemy (he's an orc!  They are all evil foes.  Kill him!)  (He may be a child now, but he will grow into a man, and take arms up against you.)  (He did not fight, but he is an Enemy Sympathizer) then Anora is going to refuse to draw blood.  Osilovar and Anora, although both paladins, would have to work hard to stay together in the same group.  Both would make the effort, but both would be very uncomfortable with the other.  (Anora:  That paladin sounded his horn, and now many on our side will die, unnecessarily, because the foe is aware of us.  What's worse, he is now demanding a charge into battle, where our people will die in hand to hand combat, when we can shoot down the foe from a distance, and nobody on our side has to die.)  (Osilovar:  She is a paladin, and uses poison?  Fights as a coward would?  Slays unarmed, defenseless foes?  Kills the helpless wounded where they lay?)</blockquote>

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