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<blockquote data-quote="Rasyr" data-source="post: 3322470" data-attributes="member: 2855"><p>To put it bluntly, so long as the ENnies are tied to EN World, they will ALWAYS BE BIASED towards d20 games (no matter how many are submitted) because the vast majority of members are d20 players and fans first and foremost, quality of the game becomes a secondary issue. When you have such a huge dedicated pool of voters for a single system being the core voters for your awards system, it isn't surprising when products for that system win, it is only surprising when something else wins....</p><p></p><p>The bias is there, whether you choose to recognize/accept it or not. And so long as the ENnies are tied to these forums, it won't go away. </p><p></p><p>As for Shackled City - I ask again, what is the MAGIC percentage of setting to module that allows a product to be listed in both? Give me a number (it can be approximate). Put it in the rules and codify it.</p><p></p><p>By putting Shackled City into the Setting category, the ENnies committed the EXACT same sort of mistake that made the Origin Awards lose all of their credibility over the years (note: the OAs took a several years to lose their credibility, and this was the first such mistake I saw in the ENnies, but now that it has happened once, it will happen again, especially if they refuse to even recognize it as a mistake). </p><p></p><p>Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it...</p><p></p><p>As for the d20 issue. I am not making a single comment on the volume or products published or on the number in any given category. Those things are to be expected. And they are not even a part of what I have been talking about.</p><p></p><p>However, the fact that you refuse to remove the awards extremely close ties to one of the largest d20 voting pools on the planet IS an issue. It generates an automatic bias against any non-d20 product that happens to enter. When every single judge is primarily a d20 player, it generates an automatic bias unless the judges are extremely scrupulous (luckily for the ENnies, they have been). </p><p></p><p>Unless and until the judges come from a wider pool, and the voting comes from a much more diverse pool (70% EN Worlders, 30% from other sites does not make for a diverse enough voting pool), there is no way that the ENnies can be considered anything but biased towards d20.</p><p></p><p>Finally, there is nothing wrong with being a d20 award and there is nothing wrong with being an independent award for all RPGs, however, so long as the ENnies remain so closely tied to EN World, they will also be just a d20 Award, with a slight bit of flavor from other systems.</p><p></p><p>Treebore, I fully intend to keep on communicating, but it is hard to do so when the other party refuses to listen because they think you are talking about one thing (see Dextra's points about the number of d20 products above) when you are talking about something else (i.e. I am NOT talking about products entered, I am talking about the innate bias of the majority of the voting pool because the awards remain tied to a d20 fan site).</p><p></p><p>Treebore - I have been involved in the Origins Awards before, and trust me, last minute rules NEVER work like you think they will. I won't even consider participating in a contest that is deciding the rules at the last minute. That is a non-starter for me. Once severely burned, three times shy.....</p><p></p><p>Just think about it for a minute... "The ENnies are awards for the entire RPG industry, but the voting is done solely on a d20 fan site, rather than on the Awards' own website"</p><p></p><p>Treebore - I stand corrected on the rpg.net post. I never thought to look past the third page.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Rasyr, post: 3322470, member: 2855"] To put it bluntly, so long as the ENnies are tied to EN World, they will ALWAYS BE BIASED towards d20 games (no matter how many are submitted) because the vast majority of members are d20 players and fans first and foremost, quality of the game becomes a secondary issue. When you have such a huge dedicated pool of voters for a single system being the core voters for your awards system, it isn't surprising when products for that system win, it is only surprising when something else wins.... The bias is there, whether you choose to recognize/accept it or not. And so long as the ENnies are tied to these forums, it won't go away. As for Shackled City - I ask again, what is the MAGIC percentage of setting to module that allows a product to be listed in both? Give me a number (it can be approximate). Put it in the rules and codify it. By putting Shackled City into the Setting category, the ENnies committed the EXACT same sort of mistake that made the Origin Awards lose all of their credibility over the years (note: the OAs took a several years to lose their credibility, and this was the first such mistake I saw in the ENnies, but now that it has happened once, it will happen again, especially if they refuse to even recognize it as a mistake). Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it... As for the d20 issue. I am not making a single comment on the volume or products published or on the number in any given category. Those things are to be expected. And they are not even a part of what I have been talking about. However, the fact that you refuse to remove the awards extremely close ties to one of the largest d20 voting pools on the planet IS an issue. It generates an automatic bias against any non-d20 product that happens to enter. When every single judge is primarily a d20 player, it generates an automatic bias unless the judges are extremely scrupulous (luckily for the ENnies, they have been). Unless and until the judges come from a wider pool, and the voting comes from a much more diverse pool (70% EN Worlders, 30% from other sites does not make for a diverse enough voting pool), there is no way that the ENnies can be considered anything but biased towards d20. Finally, there is nothing wrong with being a d20 award and there is nothing wrong with being an independent award for all RPGs, however, so long as the ENnies remain so closely tied to EN World, they will also be just a d20 Award, with a slight bit of flavor from other systems. Treebore, I fully intend to keep on communicating, but it is hard to do so when the other party refuses to listen because they think you are talking about one thing (see Dextra's points about the number of d20 products above) when you are talking about something else (i.e. I am NOT talking about products entered, I am talking about the innate bias of the majority of the voting pool because the awards remain tied to a d20 fan site). Treebore - I have been involved in the Origins Awards before, and trust me, last minute rules NEVER work like you think they will. I won't even consider participating in a contest that is deciding the rules at the last minute. That is a non-starter for me. Once severely burned, three times shy..... Just think about it for a minute... "The ENnies are awards for the entire RPG industry, but the voting is done solely on a d20 fan site, rather than on the Awards' own website" Treebore - I stand corrected on the rpg.net post. I never thought to look past the third page. [/QUOTE]
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