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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Brother MacLaren" data-source="post: 1698925" data-attributes="member: 15999">Tiny form (using Reduce Animal on self) is base +8.  Snake is another +4.  Base dex for a small viper is +3, with the size change it's +4.  So that's +16 Hide, or +20 with Cover.  Basically even odds against a net +19 Spot check, assuming the druid has no ranks in Hide.Keep in mind, we've been comparing a nominally CR 11 dragon (a very tough CR 11) against a 10th-level druid.  If you use an 11th-level druid, he can take Tiny forms without using Reduce Animal, some of which have better racial Hide bonuses than our viper form.  He'll also have access to Antilife Shell (combined with Resist Energy for acid resistance 30, he's basically dragon-immune), Fire Seeds (11d6, no SR, and no save if hit w/ranged touch),  or summoning Huge elementals (whose whirlwinds/vortices could entrap even this dragon; Augment Summoning enhances their Con and hence their DCs). The 11th-level caster can also summon 1-3 giant constrictor snakes or 2-5 giant crocodiles at a time, then enlarge them all as soon as they appear to grapple the dragon (they'll go on the druid's initiative, but the druid will likely have a higher Dex in wildshaped form and so his animal growth spell will take effect before they attack).    Check the spell description.  It defines stormy conditions as "a rain shower, clouds and wind, hot and cloudy conditions, or even a tornado (including a whirlwind formed by a djinni or an air elemental of at least Large size)" - and the druid can get this whirlwind whenever he needs it via SNA V.  Clouds and wind is a very common condition in some regions and seasons.</blockquote>

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