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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sejs" data-source="post: 1705058" data-attributes="member: 4910">No, no we get that the dragon may be able to see the druid casting.  Operative phrase:  May be.  As in not automatic.OKay, so the operative distance that most examples are working with seems to be 200'.  Fine.  And the dragon has a +24 spot total.  Guess what?  The druid, wild shaped into a small size creature (+4 size bonus on hide) with the Camoflage spell running (+10 unnamed bonus on hide checks) standing 200' away (-10 to the dragon's spot check; would be -20 but keen senses halves the distance penalty) standing out in the open gives the dragon a dead even chance of not being able to see the druid.  And that's without the druid going out of his way to find a point of concealment or cover to further assist him being hidden, which just like you pointed out, has been stated time and again.But guess what? None of that matters at ALL because the dragon can only notice that something is wrong after the druid has begun casting his spell at which point there is nothing the dragon can do to stop it from completing.In the words of Tyler Durden - "Good for you.  Doesn't change a thing."Edit/Additional Ranting: No, see you don't get it.  We arn't denying the dragon any of its natural abilities thru houseruling, we're making a point to not play to the dragon's strengths thru reasoned forethought.  Let's go down the list, shall we?Dragon's Natural Advantages and How We Are Bypassing Them:*Advantage:  High AC due to large natural armor bonus.  Bypass:  Assault via magic, or by creatures that deal damage in ways that sidestep natural armor, eg grappling.*Advantage:  Amazingly fast flight speed.  Bypass:  Restricted terrain that is too tight to allow a large size creature to fly in.*Advantage:  Highly damaging breath weapon.  Bypass:  Engaging from beyond the breath weapon's maximum range.*Advantage:  Formidable melee ability; high strength and several natural weapons.  Strong grappler.  Bypass:  Avoid personal melee at all costs.  If the dragon moves to close range, flee via Tree Stride.*Advantage:  High saves across the board.  Noticable SR.  Bypass:  Hit-and-Fade spell tactics over an extended period of time mean that eventually the dragon -will- fail a saving throw and SR check.*Advantage:  High HD means large skill totals for skills such as Spot.  Bypass:  Stack advantageous modifiers in your favor before engaging in order to minimize the benefit of those skills.  Factors such as distance, cover, terrain, etc.Is this making sense yet?  In the right kind of conflict the dragon would absolutly tear the druid appart without even blinking.  We all know this.  The whole point of this excercise was to find a way in which the druid could avoid a conflict that would favor the dragon in lieu of the kind of conflict that would favor him.  And all it takes is some rudimentary tactical thinking: do not strike where the enemy is strong, strike where the enemy is weak.  He who controls the earth can conquer heaven, ie the person who controls the parameters of a conflict can set it up so that said parameters heavily favor him being the victor.</blockquote>

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