If a DM can't cheat, can a player cheat?

[dead]

I have a player who occasionally fudges a dice roll. I've caught him in the act on occasion and have scolded him for it.

Anyway, I still suspect he continues to fudge the occasional die roll in his PC's favour.

Nevertheless, I've just been thinking about this . . . is he *really* cheating?

I mean, if he chooses to fudge die rolls on the sly, isn't that his perogitive? Isn't he the one who's responsible if the act of fudging die rolls ruins his gaming experience (it obviously isn't coz he continues to do it!)?

Is the player being "unfair" to the game? I mean, the game us DMs run is *for the players* and if fudging die rolls on the sly is his way of better enjoying the game should I continue to come down hard on him?

You see, I was thinking of taking off XP next time I caught him in the act but I thought that might just emphasise a *DM versus Player* mentality (ie. the old *DM is your enemy* [munchkin] mentality).

What are your thoughts?

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

Personally, I don't care for it. I think a failed roll only serves to make a game more breath-taking and demand a little more thought on the Player's behalf. A failed save just makes it a little more interesting. What is the fun if the PC's just march through every encounter? What is the purpose of a CR or a lot of your work when your characters are suddenly one or two levels higher then they actually are (thats the effect of fudging rolls...just to raise a character's level so the encounters are suddenly not what they are suppose to be). What if you have a few bad sessions and never roll anything higher then your a ten year old's shoe size? Sometimes, luck isn't with a person. Thats all there is to it. Can't blame anyone. Gotta live with it.

I think most of my displeasure on the topic comes from that fact I'm just one of those guys who don't care for cheaters. However, in this instance, I think it robs a lot from the game and isn't just unfair to the other players.

If I can ask, do the other player's take this cheating in stride? I also believe a game revolves around everyone having fun. But I strongly dislike cheating and think it robs the game of some of its fun. Its part of the unknown.

I know he's only fudging those close die rolls and isn't hitting on everything, but I just don't care for such acts. If everyone agreed to play it like that, then that would be one thing (the group decides the rules), but if he's just doing it so his character can be better then he actually is, then there is a problem.

If you wanted, you could just give him another level or two. Of course, he'd just keep fudging dice rolls probably (yeah, I'm assuming a little here).

I've reread this post several times and tried to fiddle with it, but just can't seem to word it the way I really want to word it to get my point across. Hopefully, someone else will come along and do just that.

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

Doh! Almost forgot...

...a DM fudges (at least from all of my experience) to save the PC's. He does it not to futher his own character or get more XP but to avoid something that was initially unintentional (generally a character's death but usually a TPK). His reasons are just a little bit better.

 

[d4]

we game to have fun.

if his "cheating" is making the game more enjoyable for him and it's not negatively impacting the other players, then what's the problem?

 

[Lord Foul]

Yes it's cheating. The game is part chance (hence the dice) and by "fudging" a roll he is cheating himself by not experiencing the game as a whole and not allowing the rest of the group to react to the non-fudged act. He is also cheating you out of a good time by making you try to figure out a way of punishing him (like you said taking away XP or what-not) in an effort to control it.

My suggestion is to have everyone and the DM make thier rolls on the table in plain view of everyone else (except for DM rolls that the party should not see of course). That way no can accuse anyone of cheating die rolls.

Bad things can happen when you roll the dice but that's part of game, and the better payers will be able to react to the roll and figure out a way to turn the situation around.

Hope things work out for you.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

If it's to save his life, and it's possible, I don't mind.

Brad

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Of course it's cheating. By definition, it's cheating. The rules say to roll a die and add x/y/z modifiers, not roll a die and add whatever the heck you feel like adding. And he's doing it on the sly, so he knows he's cheating.

He may be doing it because he's stuck in a "I can't win if you don't lose" mentality. He may be doing it because he's one of those people that can't stand not being the center of attention, and he's fudging roles so his character can be the star. Heck, he may be doing it because he doesn't trust his DM to play fair, and feels he has to to level the playing field.

But 'why' doesn't really matter. He's cheating. He's cheating himself of the pleasure that comes from succeeding when playing by the rules, and if he's happier that way, that's fine. But he's also cheating the other players who abide by the rules and live with the consequences, and that's not fine. He's cheating the DM, because in essence he's saying he has no respect for the time and effort they put into running a fair but challenging game, and that's not fine, either.

 

[dead]

Personally, I don't care for it. I think a failed roll only serves to make a game more breath-taking and demand a little more thought on the Player's behalf. A failed save just makes it a little more interesting. What is the fun if the PC's just march through every encounter?

I agree, when I play, I'll actually find it just as exhilarating when I roll a "1" as when I roll a "20". If the roll of "1" means my PC dies, then so be it. The randomness makes things really exciting and the threat of death is real!

(At the same time, however, there's some people who play RPGs without any dice at all! Their games are pretty much improvised theatre. Usually the "deep-immersion" style gamers like this form of gaming.)

If I can ask, do the other player's take this cheating in stride?

The other players mostly don't see it because he's very sureptitious about it. I only notice coz I'm surveying the whole table. The other players know only because I've mentioned it and they didn't really seem to care. I mean, this guy's cheating is minimal . . . maybe once ever couple of sessions but it still irritates the Hell out of me! Also, when I suspect he's cheating but have no proof, he'll cry out his innocence! When I catch him red-handed, he'll just blush and re-roll.

 

[Lord Foul]

Doh! Almost forgot...

...a DM fudges (at least from all of my experience) to save the PC's. He does it not to futher his own character or get more XP but to avoid something that was initially unintentional (generally a character's death but usually a TPK). His reasons are just a little bit better.

Yes I will admit that I have fudged a roll to avoid a TPK. But I was the DM and I designed the adventure. An encounter that I thought would be a cake-walk in design ended up being the groups worst nightmare. And it wasn't because of bad rolls by the group, it was beacause I missread the abilities of the monster until I had to look up some info in game and realized my mistake. I left them next to death but I let them live. My bad.

 

[xazil]

I normally DM a lot more than I play and I have to watch out that I dont habitually fudge a roll when playing to up the tension/enjoyment, treating my PC as an important NPC. A player shouldn't fudge as they are part of a team, and each team member should be playing on the same level. One person modifying their rolls puts them ahead of the rest.

BTW I have actually fudged rolls while playing that got my character more into trouble.