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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Bawylie" data-source="post: 7583016" data-attributes="member: 6776133"><p>I wouldn’t say you were too “gamist” but that’s largely because I find no value in Forge-waffle. </p><p></p><p>Apart from that, when I played (for a very limited time) 1st edition, my DM did ALL the rolling except damage dice. Now I was 8, and that’s fair. But he rolled everyone else too (his brothers) and they were 9 and 12. In 2nd, I remember rolling to hit and making ability checks when asked to by the DM. </p><p></p><p>But it wasn’t (in my experience) until 3rd edition that players started asking to make skill checks. And they often short-handed their play down to “I roll to seduce” rather than actually take an in-game action. At the time, I played that way and didn’t mind. But when I started DM-ing 3rd ed games, I did mind. (I’d DM-ed in 2nd, but not 3rd). And it was jarring. </p><p></p><p>4E sort of doubled down on player declarations by attaching powers to them. Fair enough, that’s how that game played. But it did make an effort to go back to the basic conversation of the game wherein a scenario was posited and the DM asked what you do about it. Now, what you did was play a card that had a name, description, and effect, so we had “I use White Raven’s re-arrange deck chairs and shift my allies around while attacking the goblin for 3W+STR damage and half that if I miss.” </p><p></p><p>Bringing us to 5th. Now (again, in my experience) 3rd and 4E were a little bit “button-pushy” insofar as players seemed to interact more with the game system than with the adventure scenario. That’s not all bad, and there are some outstanding innovations in those games. 5th took those, and went back to a more 2nd edition play experience with recent/modern system updates. Very neat. </p><p></p><p>But the biggest change comes here: 3rd and 4E told the DM what to set the DCs at (or otherwise included them in the ability/skill descriptions or wherever else). 5th says the dice are neutral arbiters, tools the DM can use to determine outcomes, but not required to. It lays out “a middle path” that rewards clever use of players talents and assets and also rewards paying attention to the game so that some things don’t need a roll at all. In other words, DM adjudication is back in a big way for 5th. And since it is now a co-equal component in action resolution, it is only right that judgments be fair, consistent, and informed when adjudicating a player’s action. </p><p></p><p>As to fair, consistent, and informed that brings us to your point. You’ve always played some other way where players can declare skill use. You’re surprised that today some DMs say players aren’t allowed to make these rolls. Well, in order to be fair, consistent, and informed we’ve adapted/adopted some practices or rules of order that empower players while avoiding ambiguity and bias. </p><p></p><p>Anyway the whole thing has shifted from 3rd & 4E’s “can you roll higher than this number?” to 2nd & 5th’s “what do you do about all this?” And that shift suggests a different answer than “I throw dice at it until it’s gone.”</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bawylie, post: 7583016, member: 6776133"] I wouldn’t say you were too “gamist” but that’s largely because I find no value in Forge-waffle. Apart from that, when I played (for a very limited time) 1st edition, my DM did ALL the rolling except damage dice. Now I was 8, and that’s fair. But he rolled everyone else too (his brothers) and they were 9 and 12. In 2nd, I remember rolling to hit and making ability checks when asked to by the DM. But it wasn’t (in my experience) until 3rd edition that players started asking to make skill checks. And they often short-handed their play down to “I roll to seduce” rather than actually take an in-game action. At the time, I played that way and didn’t mind. But when I started DM-ing 3rd ed games, I did mind. (I’d DM-ed in 2nd, but not 3rd). And it was jarring. 4E sort of doubled down on player declarations by attaching powers to them. Fair enough, that’s how that game played. But it did make an effort to go back to the basic conversation of the game wherein a scenario was posited and the DM asked what you do about it. Now, what you did was play a card that had a name, description, and effect, so we had “I use White Raven’s re-arrange deck chairs and shift my allies around while attacking the goblin for 3W+STR damage and half that if I miss.” Bringing us to 5th. Now (again, in my experience) 3rd and 4E were a little bit “button-pushy” insofar as players seemed to interact more with the game system than with the adventure scenario. That’s not all bad, and there are some outstanding innovations in those games. 5th took those, and went back to a more 2nd edition play experience with recent/modern system updates. Very neat. But the biggest change comes here: 3rd and 4E told the DM what to set the DCs at (or otherwise included them in the ability/skill descriptions or wherever else). 5th says the dice are neutral arbiters, tools the DM can use to determine outcomes, but not required to. It lays out “a middle path” that rewards clever use of players talents and assets and also rewards paying attention to the game so that some things don’t need a roll at all. In other words, DM adjudication is back in a big way for 5th. And since it is now a co-equal component in action resolution, it is only right that judgments be fair, consistent, and informed when adjudicating a player’s action. As to fair, consistent, and informed that brings us to your point. You’ve always played some other way where players can declare skill use. You’re surprised that today some DMs say players aren’t allowed to make these rolls. Well, in order to be fair, consistent, and informed we’ve adapted/adopted some practices or rules of order that empower players while avoiding ambiguity and bias. Anyway the whole thing has shifted from 3rd & 4E’s “can you roll higher than this number?” to 2nd & 5th’s “what do you do about all this?” And that shift suggests a different answer than “I throw dice at it until it’s gone.” [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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