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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7585297" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Posting a few different thoughts from a long reading of this thread. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm curious, does anyone take Insight as a skill in your games? </p><p></p><p>I've got a friend who I play with, sometimes he GM's and he also does not allow Insight checks to decide if strangers are lying to us. He says it is unrealistic because we don't know these people well enough to know that. </p><p></p><p>I never take Insight when he is GMing, because it becomes a useless skill. We are traveling mercenaries who are rarely in the same town twice, let alone spending multiple weeks or months getting to know people in said towns. When the merchant says a bad crop means prices went up, is he gouging the newcomers to town or is this a plot hook? Sure, I can find out by asking around town, after I lose the extra 20 gold they charged us. This guy says he knows a secret way into the castle, is this a trap where 45 of the Dark Lord's guards are going to ambush us or the DM giving us a way in so we can continue the adventure? </p><p></p><p>Yes, in real-life I'd have to use my best judgement, but the game gives us an ability to see through deception. IT's why when we try to lie to the guards, we need to roll to see if they believe us. Otherwise, how could this guard know that the signet I'm showing him doesn't belong to Archduke Archibald and I'm his agent traveling in disguise with a message for the Lady. I'm lying through my teeth, we stole this ring five sessions ago from the guy's manor, but I need to roll so the guard doesn't know I'm lying. By the same token, I should have the ability to know whether or not these shady folk saying they've come to help us are lying or not. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>For 90% of skills, I have no problem with this approach. If you are trying to lie to get into the palace, I need to know some form of the lie you are trying to sell so I know how the guard responds. </p><p></p><p>But, for insight... is there any other path than "I look for body language clues that they are lying."? </p><p></p><p>I mean, if I'm going to declare someone is lying to me... I'm going to declare that, not use that declaration to figure out if they are lying. If I'm going to ask more questions to see if their story holds up and or if they contradict themselves, that's what I'm going to do. If I'm asking for insight, I want to know what my character's gut and observation skills are gleaning off of this individual. </p><p></p><p>In this one skill, I really don't see how I could ask a player to give me more information, asking for the Insight tells me exactly what action they are taking because it is a sum of observations, not a multi-choice approach. At least, as long as I don't have super senses that can smell or hear a lie, like some super heroes I've heard of. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>One thing I want to add to this, sometimes when my players ask to roll for something and I didn't have something planned, if they roll really well I'll give them something extra. </p><p></p><p>Just recently a player wanted to loot a room in a castle, it was the room for the maids so I wasn't planning on there being anything in there, but it made sense there could be something, and they rolled really high, so they found a box with keepsakes from the prince. Or sometimes, they find a nifty item like a magic wine bottle that pours out the type of wine you request. </p><p></p><p>Failure probably would have netted them nothing (I do horrible enough things to them on purpose without me adding more, but I also sometimes add more because an idea strikes me mid-way through) but I like rewarding good rolls too, since nothing sucks more than rolling really high when it absolutely doesn't matter.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7585297, member: 6801228"] Posting a few different thoughts from a long reading of this thread. I'm curious, does anyone take Insight as a skill in your games? I've got a friend who I play with, sometimes he GM's and he also does not allow Insight checks to decide if strangers are lying to us. He says it is unrealistic because we don't know these people well enough to know that. I never take Insight when he is GMing, because it becomes a useless skill. We are traveling mercenaries who are rarely in the same town twice, let alone spending multiple weeks or months getting to know people in said towns. When the merchant says a bad crop means prices went up, is he gouging the newcomers to town or is this a plot hook? Sure, I can find out by asking around town, after I lose the extra 20 gold they charged us. This guy says he knows a secret way into the castle, is this a trap where 45 of the Dark Lord's guards are going to ambush us or the DM giving us a way in so we can continue the adventure? Yes, in real-life I'd have to use my best judgement, but the game gives us an ability to see through deception. IT's why when we try to lie to the guards, we need to roll to see if they believe us. Otherwise, how could this guard know that the signet I'm showing him doesn't belong to Archduke Archibald and I'm his agent traveling in disguise with a message for the Lady. I'm lying through my teeth, we stole this ring five sessions ago from the guy's manor, but I need to roll so the guard doesn't know I'm lying. By the same token, I should have the ability to know whether or not these shady folk saying they've come to help us are lying or not. For 90% of skills, I have no problem with this approach. If you are trying to lie to get into the palace, I need to know some form of the lie you are trying to sell so I know how the guard responds. But, for insight... is there any other path than "I look for body language clues that they are lying."? I mean, if I'm going to declare someone is lying to me... I'm going to declare that, not use that declaration to figure out if they are lying. If I'm going to ask more questions to see if their story holds up and or if they contradict themselves, that's what I'm going to do. If I'm asking for insight, I want to know what my character's gut and observation skills are gleaning off of this individual. In this one skill, I really don't see how I could ask a player to give me more information, asking for the Insight tells me exactly what action they are taking because it is a sum of observations, not a multi-choice approach. At least, as long as I don't have super senses that can smell or hear a lie, like some super heroes I've heard of. One thing I want to add to this, sometimes when my players ask to roll for something and I didn't have something planned, if they roll really well I'll give them something extra. Just recently a player wanted to loot a room in a castle, it was the room for the maids so I wasn't planning on there being anything in there, but it made sense there could be something, and they rolled really high, so they found a box with keepsakes from the prince. Or sometimes, they find a nifty item like a magic wine bottle that pours out the type of wine you request. Failure probably would have netted them nothing (I do horrible enough things to them on purpose without me adding more, but I also sometimes add more because an idea strikes me mid-way through) but I like rewarding good rolls too, since nothing sucks more than rolling really high when it absolutely doesn't matter. [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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