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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7586674" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Somewhat out of order to keep people's posts together. Multi-replying is easier than posting 3 or 4 times in a row. I think  I'm going to have to agree with Hussar on this one a little bit (and with how abrasive their being in this debate, I almost don't want to)But, I don't know if I'd call this a bad use of the skill, or poor framing on the part of the GM.See, by responding to an insight by telling me that the mechanic wants to make "a lot" of money, you are setting me up to believe he is lying to get more money. But beyond that, you are telling me his goals, and if I rolled to find out a merchant wants to make money, I'd probably ask the DM if they want me to roll for realizing water is wet while I'm at it. But what is their intent? Are they intent on gouging me for as much as I'm worth? Are they intent on providing the best service they can? Because that is what the player is likely asking anyways, is that price a real price or an inflated price. And frankly, why do this to someone anyways? I've had cars that needed to go to mechanics constantly, and I hate dealing with that sort of "toss a coin, you don't know" BS. Are you really advocating putting players through that just for the sake of realism? Is the best they are going to get from insight things like "The farmer doesn't want to die" "The merchant wants to make money" "The King thinks you should listen to him" The skill says it lets you figure out intentions. Is the mechanic intending to gouge me with false problems or inflated prices is a legit question, and your non-answer of "he wants to make a lot of money" means that we wasted our time, because I didn't need a skill roll to know that. See, that's great and all for when it is a major plot point. Spy game, the book of poems is a cypher telling them where the secret drop point is, and the spies having the same books of poems is the clue that led them to figuring that out. Very cool scenario. What clues did you seed into the world for Horse Trader #54 overcharging them for a riding horses? What series of events led to the clues the players will use when they randomly decide to search a traveling merchant's wagon that you only had pass by to deliver news of an orc presence to the south? Clues and breadcrumbs work great for major plot points. For minor stuff that your player's blindside you with, not so much. My players recently broke into an enemy castle to free it from the influence of a cult of Orcus. The criminal asked to search for valuables and loot the place. It makes perfect sense, it also makes sense there are hidden treasures in the royal chambers. Didn't plan on it though, because mostly the paladin and cleric keep him reined in and not stealing everything (players are fine with the dynamic, and they all loved him turning it on them). So, should I not have allowed him to search for treasures in the royal chambers? No, that seems a ridiculous answer. But, I also wasn't going to spend 10 minutes coming up with answers and deciding DC's only to have him roll a 1 (or a 2 or a 3, I know auto-fails are a houserule). So he rolled, and I decided based on his roll. It saved time and let him do something in character that made total sense.  And I'll also add, a lot of my players don't have the mental space to remember all my clues. I'm lucky this semester to have a player willing to take notes we can refer back to, but we play in a weekly game and expecting someone to remember a clue that might have been given over 160 hours ago when they had an entire week full of other things to deal with.... Yeah, I'm only doing that for the big things in the main plot, it wouldn't make sense to try it any where else. Yeah, this is an important thing to avoid. But also, the reason why I prefer not to just let people roll without giving me some details is not just this, but also the fact that if a "master thief" never makes any mistakes then there are no teeth to those sorts of traps. You can't just have them trigger on players, and there is no fun if they never accidentally do something dangerous they regret, so sometimes you give them the choice of whether or not they do the potentially dangerous thing if it might mean a better chance at figuring out what the glowing artifact is.</blockquote>

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