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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7586756" data-attributes="member: 22779">Would just like to say that there have been some really fantastic points raised in the past couple of pages.  And I sincerely mean that for both sides of the fence.  I know I come across as abrasive.  I can't help it.  I try to write in a pretty formal style which, I know annoys folks.  I've never been able to break the habit.Anyway, the two examples above that [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] is using are really excellent IMO.  Needless to say, I would rule them slightly differently.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />In the first example, the fighter is trying to bluff the bandit king.  How this would work at my table would likely be (and, remember, I use Fantasy Grounds which allows players to make rolls that only the DM can see - it does speed things up considerably).  Note, it's also entirely possible that this would be done in first person, I'm not going to bother here just because it's quicker.  Imagine the in character speech happening.  Some of my players do, some don't.Fighter - Ok, I tell the bandits we have a posse of 40 warriors outside, they must surrender.  ((Rolls on the Die Tower - cannot see the results)).DM - ((Results are high enough to beat the bandit's insight)) - With disgust they lower their weapons and you take them prisoner.DM - ((Results Fail)) - They see through your bluff and attack (honestly, probably the most likely outcome).        ((Resuts Fail)) -  The Bandit leader commands one of his flunkies to go outside and look.  WHat do you do?  (an outcome that is only likely if I am having a good day and there is more information I want to get into the player's hands.  Possible, but, frankly, not likely)Or, reverse situation:DM - The bandit leader tells you that he has 80 bandits ready to strike the town if you don't surrender.  Player:  I try to see if he's lying.  ((Rolls Insight))Player 2 :  is there any way I can help here?  ((Not really)), Ok, I'll insight too.DM:  ((Success)) You see through his bluff.  What do you do?DM:  ((Fail)) You don't know.  What do you do?IOW, the end results aren't all that different really.  Only real difference is, I let the players leverage their characters rather than their ability to tell me things like "by gleaning clues from his body language, speech habits, and changers in mannerisms (approach)."  Because, frankly, I have to assume that the if the player doesn't tell you these things, he will automatically fail, no?  He's not allowed to just say, "I use Insight".  He has to tell you how he's using insight.  And, presumably, the player can't simply quote the PHB to you every time.  I highly doubt that that's acceptable after the third or fourth time.</blockquote>

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