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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Oofta" data-source="post: 7587057" data-attributes="member: 6801845"><p>I don't ban the words "I make a [insert skill] check" at my table. If the intent is clear, I don't see why it matters. If the intent isn't clear I'll ask for clarification.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is where I get confused. If someone is using deception it can be countered by a insight check. Basic skill challenge 101. So if a player is suspicious of someone and wants to make an insight check and no insight check is called for then they know the NPC is not using deception.</p><p></p><p>Then you say that the player should never know with certainty that the NPC is telling the truth which I agree with. But if you didn't ask for an insight check there was no deception so they know the NPC is telling the truth but you say the player should never know ... and so on and so forth. </p><p></p><p>Or are skill checks just irrelevant in your game? Because you stated</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So based on my understanding you would not ask for nor allow an insight check. If a player says something along the lines of "I don't believe her, the letter could just be her covering her tracks." Would you ask for an insight check then? Would you just ignore them? Tell them they have no reason to doubt her?</p><p></p><p>Because personally I'd be okay with "I don't believe her, the letter could just be her covering her tracks and I roll __ on an insight check." I'd roll a D20, ignore the result and say "She seems to be telling the truth."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So traps are pointless in D&D for you? People in your game should never invest in skills to find or disable traps? </p><p></p><p><em>Overuse </em>of mundane traps is boring. Appropriate use of traps (even if resolved by a die roll) is very rewarding for some people who spend significant resources on being good at being the trap expert. I want to reward people for the compromises and design decisions they made for their character, not just reward players that know how to describe solutions in a way that make sense to me.</p><p></p><p>In the scenario of investigating a paranoid trap-makers house I would use passive investigation everywhere and if someone was particularly suspicious (they find a chest or an ornate door to the lower level for example) then if they ask to do an investigation check (either "I do an investigation check" or "I look at it closely" works for me) then I'll either take their roll or their passive value whichever is highest. If the PC's skill is high enough that there's no chance of failure I'll just narrate it as a little pat on the back. "Because of your awesome skills you easily disarm every trap you come across."</p><p></p><p>Some traps would just be a simple roll. I don't know why you think that would always be boring. I think there can be a fair amount of tension even in a simple roll, not every action needs to be acted out. Not every swing of the sword needs to be narrated.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, it can be quite fun. Let's say the check barely fails. "You start to disable the trap and there's a slight clicking sound. You realize that if you move a muscle there's a slab of stone that will fall on you, crushing you and blocking the passage. What do you do?" Now it's a team effort/scramble. Does the BDF use his athletics to try to push the stone back? Does the rogue try to give instructions to the wizard on how to reset the catch that is still barely holding the stone? Is there an inscription on the stone you can now see that could have religious meaning? Do the other PCs just ask where to send his personal effects and wish him luck? </p><p></p><p>Or the PCs discover a trap but it takes multiple people to disarm for some reason, or realize they just triggered a trap that's slowly filling the room with water, or the walls or going to slowly crush them unless their buddy Artoo-Deetoo at the control panel can disarm it first. There are a lot of ways of doing it, but when I use traps it's rarely boring.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Oofta, post: 7587057, member: 6801845"] I don't ban the words "I make a [insert skill] check" at my table. If the intent is clear, I don't see why it matters. If the intent isn't clear I'll ask for clarification. This is where I get confused. If someone is using deception it can be countered by a insight check. Basic skill challenge 101. So if a player is suspicious of someone and wants to make an insight check and no insight check is called for then they know the NPC is not using deception. Then you say that the player should never know with certainty that the NPC is telling the truth which I agree with. But if you didn't ask for an insight check there was no deception so they know the NPC is telling the truth but you say the player should never know ... and so on and so forth. Or are skill checks just irrelevant in your game? Because you stated So based on my understanding you would not ask for nor allow an insight check. If a player says something along the lines of "I don't believe her, the letter could just be her covering her tracks." Would you ask for an insight check then? Would you just ignore them? Tell them they have no reason to doubt her? Because personally I'd be okay with "I don't believe her, the letter could just be her covering her tracks and I roll __ on an insight check." I'd roll a D20, ignore the result and say "She seems to be telling the truth." So traps are pointless in D&D for you? People in your game should never invest in skills to find or disable traps? [I]Overuse [/I]of mundane traps is boring. Appropriate use of traps (even if resolved by a die roll) is very rewarding for some people who spend significant resources on being good at being the trap expert. I want to reward people for the compromises and design decisions they made for their character, not just reward players that know how to describe solutions in a way that make sense to me. In the scenario of investigating a paranoid trap-makers house I would use passive investigation everywhere and if someone was particularly suspicious (they find a chest or an ornate door to the lower level for example) then if they ask to do an investigation check (either "I do an investigation check" or "I look at it closely" works for me) then I'll either take their roll or their passive value whichever is highest. If the PC's skill is high enough that there's no chance of failure I'll just narrate it as a little pat on the back. "Because of your awesome skills you easily disarm every trap you come across." Some traps would just be a simple roll. I don't know why you think that would always be boring. I think there can be a fair amount of tension even in a simple roll, not every action needs to be acted out. Not every swing of the sword needs to be narrated. On the other hand, it can be quite fun. Let's say the check barely fails. "You start to disable the trap and there's a slight clicking sound. You realize that if you move a muscle there's a slab of stone that will fall on you, crushing you and blocking the passage. What do you do?" Now it's a team effort/scramble. Does the BDF use his athletics to try to push the stone back? Does the rogue try to give instructions to the wizard on how to reset the catch that is still barely holding the stone? Is there an inscription on the stone you can now see that could have religious meaning? Do the other PCs just ask where to send his personal effects and wish him luck? Or the PCs discover a trap but it takes multiple people to disarm for some reason, or realize they just triggered a trap that's slowly filling the room with water, or the walls or going to slowly crush them unless their buddy Artoo-Deetoo at the control panel can disarm it first. There are a lot of ways of doing it, but when I use traps it's rarely boring. [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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