Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7587244" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>[MENTION=6776133]Bawylie[/MENTION] Thanks for a good post to spring off of to set up a question of balance that may help frame the discussion and differences.</p><p>.</p><p></p><p>In their post above a hypothetical case is put forth...</p><p>"A hypothetical. You’re the DM. You’ve posed a scenario in which adventurers have to overcome some obstacle - let’s say give a password or something. Or punch in a combination. Something like that such that there’s a right answer, wrong answers, and the ability to roll some check to bypass the obstacle."</p><p></p><p>In this case the GM has put a challenge before the party with both of the following presdnted:</p><p>1 An absolute correct answer - if I do this, if I say this literally in this case, I get thru. No checks, no character skills needed. Just pick/guess the right key/way AS PLAYER and walk thru. There may even be more than one absolute answer - more than one just "choose the win."</p><p>2 A way to use a CHARACTER's skill check (ability check) to get thru. May be more than one way to "check the win." </p><p></p><p>So, this is I think at part striking at the core of that "balance" the DMG mentions in its Middle Path and the others. </p><p></p><p>How often do you have challenges that matter that are*:</p><p> A only solvable by #1</p><p>B only solvable by #2</p><p>C that are solvable by either #1 or #2 </p><p>D Only solvable by both #1 and #2 used in tandem</p><p></p><p>* Perhaps this is better expressed as "how often does our resolution process result in cases actually being solved by:" since that is what the players see in play and that shapes their views going forward. </p><p></p><p>That is what to me some of the primary disagreements on playstyles here is deriving from- our different views of balance between those.</p><p></p><p>How we balance those, that set of spices, in the recipes of our games determines the relative value of skills and ability checks to other options. </p><p></p><p>If our outlook as GM says there will be a lot of A & C, few if any B and a smattering of D, then we are setting that balance to one side of that path - one which says "the emphasize skills route is not that valuable. We may get to the point where to the players it looks like making a skill check is even "a bad choice" since there is so often a non-roll solution available it's really a case where actually using your character skill bonus is the consolation game, you already lost the auto-win.</p><p></p><p>So, to me a key point is that #1 is not relating to a character trait and #2 brings players choices about who their character is, what they are good at and bad at into play more directly. </p><p></p><p>As a result in my games for challenges that matter and involve ability checks, A is almost never a case I use, B is easily 50% of the ones I use and both C and D likely split the remainder relatively close. That's rough guess, not tabulated results. </p><p></p><p>But it seems to work for us because it gives those who focused on being better at ability checks more than a second hand role - behind A - when their choices to focus more on ability checks is actually in the spotlight. </p><p></p><p>This to me seems to balance how "focus on weapons and fighting and "focus on magic" works with how "focus on skills or ability checks does." In my games, during challenges where there are enemies, the "fighting guy" and the "caster guy" rarely if ever find that there is a " just choose the win way that puts their fighying and casting to the backup plan less likely to succeed. </p><p></p><p>But, as I have said, each of us has our own place where we see "balance" and " imbalance" and to me I tend to judge it as described here.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7587244, member: 6919838"] [MENTION=6776133]Bawylie[/MENTION] Thanks for a good post to spring off of to set up a question of balance that may help frame the discussion and differences. . In their post above a hypothetical case is put forth... "A hypothetical. You’re the DM. You’ve posed a scenario in which adventurers have to overcome some obstacle - let’s say give a password or something. Or punch in a combination. Something like that such that there’s a right answer, wrong answers, and the ability to roll some check to bypass the obstacle." In this case the GM has put a challenge before the party with both of the following presdnted: 1 An absolute correct answer - if I do this, if I say this literally in this case, I get thru. No checks, no character skills needed. Just pick/guess the right key/way AS PLAYER and walk thru. There may even be more than one absolute answer - more than one just "choose the win." 2 A way to use a CHARACTER's skill check (ability check) to get thru. May be more than one way to "check the win." So, this is I think at part striking at the core of that "balance" the DMG mentions in its Middle Path and the others. How often do you have challenges that matter that are*: A only solvable by #1 B only solvable by #2 C that are solvable by either #1 or #2 D Only solvable by both #1 and #2 used in tandem * Perhaps this is better expressed as "how often does our resolution process result in cases actually being solved by:" since that is what the players see in play and that shapes their views going forward. That is what to me some of the primary disagreements on playstyles here is deriving from- our different views of balance between those. How we balance those, that set of spices, in the recipes of our games determines the relative value of skills and ability checks to other options. If our outlook as GM says there will be a lot of A & C, few if any B and a smattering of D, then we are setting that balance to one side of that path - one which says "the emphasize skills route is not that valuable. We may get to the point where to the players it looks like making a skill check is even "a bad choice" since there is so often a non-roll solution available it's really a case where actually using your character skill bonus is the consolation game, you already lost the auto-win. So, to me a key point is that #1 is not relating to a character trait and #2 brings players choices about who their character is, what they are good at and bad at into play more directly. As a result in my games for challenges that matter and involve ability checks, A is almost never a case I use, B is easily 50% of the ones I use and both C and D likely split the remainder relatively close. That's rough guess, not tabulated results. But it seems to work for us because it gives those who focused on being better at ability checks more than a second hand role - behind A - when their choices to focus more on ability checks is actually in the spotlight. This to me seems to balance how "focus on weapons and fighting and "focus on magic" works with how "focus on skills or ability checks does." In my games, during challenges where there are enemies, the "fighting guy" and the "caster guy" rarely if ever find that there is a " just choose the win way that puts their fighying and casting to the backup plan less likely to succeed. But, as I have said, each of us has our own place where we see "balance" and " imbalance" and to me I tend to judge it as described here. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
Top