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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7588038" data-attributes="member: 6919838">Ok so i will bite - if your npc is REALLY GOOD all caps at lying, why did you assign him a &quot;paltry +5&quot; if you do not think that is representative of it?The DMG reccommends a DC of 20 baseline to reflect someone with both skill/training and Aptitude. So, that would be a starting point based in their recommendations for me for a DC to catch someone in a lie that fit that bill - REALLY GOOD all caps.Furthermore, if its a lie they knew was gona be needed, say an alibi or some other part of the con, i would give the liar &quot;advantage&quot; reflecting &quot;prior actions&quot; like planning out supporting points, refining his script, planned out red herrings etc.So by now we have a baseline DC of 20 with disadvantage (or 25 straight up using the +5 for passives replacements.)So, to me, setting the REALLY GOOD all caps liar at a simple +5 opposition just seems to be a mismatch between your view of the NPC and the stats you give them.But, fun thing on that other topic, me too die rolls... I find they tend to stop or get greatly reduced when the &quot;every failire can include setback&quot; definitions are used straight out of the PHB.The whole &quot;i might roll a 20 (or 17+) and get something&quot; is not as appealing when they also see &quot;but if i roll anything lower i might get bad stuff too.&quot;.........&quot;Wait, what do you mean the pouch with the stones and that ring is missing? I had it just a little while ago.&quot;&quot;Absolutely, you had it in that bar, when we all tried to suss out that guy's lies. Remember, you ducked at that but still managed to spot some of it as true.&quot;&quot;So where did it go? Could someone have lifted it?&quot;&quot;What, when we were all studying the guy? Nah. Not hardly... Could they?&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7588038, member: 6919838"] Ok so i will bite - if your npc is REALLY GOOD all caps at lying, why did you assign him a "paltry +5" if you do not think that is representative of it? The DMG reccommends a DC of 20 baseline to reflect someone with both skill/training and Aptitude. So, that would be a starting point based in their recommendations for me for a DC to catch someone in a lie that fit that bill - REALLY GOOD all caps. Furthermore, if its a lie they knew was gona be needed, say an alibi or some other part of the con, i would give the liar "advantage" reflecting "prior actions" like planning out supporting points, refining his script, planned out red herrings etc. So by now we have a baseline DC of 20 with disadvantage (or 25 straight up using the +5 for passives replacements.) So, to me, setting the REALLY GOOD all caps liar at a simple +5 opposition just seems to be a mismatch between your view of the NPC and the stats you give them. But, fun thing on that other topic, me too die rolls... I find they tend to stop or get greatly reduced when the "every failire can include setback" definitions are used straight out of the PHB. The whole "i might roll a 20 (or 17+) and get something" is not as appealing when they also see "but if i roll anything lower i might get bad stuff too." ... ... ... "Wait, what do you mean the pouch with the stones and that ring is missing? I had it just a little while ago." "Absolutely, you had it in that bar, when we all tried to suss out that guy's lies. Remember, you ducked at that but still managed to spot some of it as true." "So where did it go? Could someone have lifted it?" "What, when we were all studying the guy? Nah. Not hardly... Could they?" [/QUOTE]

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