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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Guest 6801328" data-source="post: 7588671"><p>Because if that approach is equally effective as "goal and method" you are training your players to skip the goal and method, nudging your game closer to a bland series of dice rolls.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because those who <em>don't</em> invest in the skills are much less likely to get automatic successes? (Seriously, I don't understand how this one could not be understood...)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Even if it happens very rarely, if it exists in your game it exists in your game, and then players feel they either need to say "I use (skill) to search for traps!" at every door and chest, or @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=22779" target="_blank">Hussar</a></u></strong></em>'s fears are realized and they start going through a pre-flight (or pre-kick-in-the-door) checklist on every portal.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think you left a word or two out of that one, but I get the gist. This one is mostly me.</p><p></p><p>1. NPCs don't "use deception" they lie. Or leave out details. Or exaggerate. If and when it comes down to a contested roll, their success at doing so may be determined with an appropriate ability check. (Just have to get our terminology straight.)</p><p>2. For me this is not a rules thing, it's a flavor thing: most of the time I think it's more interesting and immersive for the players to have some uncertainty about what the truth is. We could spend all day listing books and movies that would have been boring if the audience (or the characters) figured out who was lying at the beginning of the story rather than having it be revealed at the end. </p><p>3. (related to 2) If a player's decision to suddenly say, "I use Insight to see if he's lying" means that your hard work setting up an exciting and scary story could be completely unraveled. It would mean you basically can't have...or, at least, shouldn't bother planning...adventures where a supposed ally is actually the villain. If the DM isn't a really great liar, and accidentally drops a hint, all a player has to say is, "Wait a sec...I use Insight!" and, poof!, hard work gone.</p><p>4. It diminishes the value of magical lie detection, which...as somebody concerned about the value of "investment" into characters...you should understand. Imagine if the Deception skill were as powerful as a 2nd level illusion? Or even more so specifically because it is <em>not</em> magical?</p><p>5. Lastly, although I'm not a realist/simulationist by any stretch (I don't really care how much authentic plate armor weighs, for example) "high confidence, non-magical lie detection" is just my personal pet peeve. Humans suck at detecting lies in strangers. No, you can't be trained to detect "tells". It's a total myth (with countless bad convictions resulting from the belief that it works.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Guest 6801328, post: 7588671"] Because if that approach is equally effective as "goal and method" you are training your players to skip the goal and method, nudging your game closer to a bland series of dice rolls. Because those who [I]don't[/I] invest in the skills are much less likely to get automatic successes? (Seriously, I don't understand how this one could not be understood...) Even if it happens very rarely, if it exists in your game it exists in your game, and then players feel they either need to say "I use (skill) to search for traps!" at every door and chest, or @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=22779"]Hussar[/URL][/U][/B][/I]'s fears are realized and they start going through a pre-flight (or pre-kick-in-the-door) checklist on every portal. I think you left a word or two out of that one, but I get the gist. This one is mostly me. 1. NPCs don't "use deception" they lie. Or leave out details. Or exaggerate. If and when it comes down to a contested roll, their success at doing so may be determined with an appropriate ability check. (Just have to get our terminology straight.) 2. For me this is not a rules thing, it's a flavor thing: most of the time I think it's more interesting and immersive for the players to have some uncertainty about what the truth is. We could spend all day listing books and movies that would have been boring if the audience (or the characters) figured out who was lying at the beginning of the story rather than having it be revealed at the end. 3. (related to 2) If a player's decision to suddenly say, "I use Insight to see if he's lying" means that your hard work setting up an exciting and scary story could be completely unraveled. It would mean you basically can't have...or, at least, shouldn't bother planning...adventures where a supposed ally is actually the villain. If the DM isn't a really great liar, and accidentally drops a hint, all a player has to say is, "Wait a sec...I use Insight!" and, poof!, hard work gone. 4. It diminishes the value of magical lie detection, which...as somebody concerned about the value of "investment" into characters...you should understand. Imagine if the Deception skill were as powerful as a 2nd level illusion? Or even more so specifically because it is [I]not[/I] magical? 5. Lastly, although I'm not a realist/simulationist by any stretch (I don't really care how much authentic plate armor weighs, for example) "high confidence, non-magical lie detection" is just my personal pet peeve. Humans suck at detecting lies in strangers. No, you can't be trained to detect "tells". It's a total myth (with countless bad convictions resulting from the belief that it works.) [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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