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General Tabletop Discussion
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7589915" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>I definetly don't see this as calling anything badwrongfun, but I do want to seek to understand here. Because, what you are saying, kills a lot of skill usage. </p><p></p><p>Quick and dirty one: Perception. </p><p></p><p>The team is walking through a dungeon, and they come to a doorway. They want to roll perception to see if there is an ambush waiting for them on the other side, because they've been ambushed a few times in this particular dungeon. </p><p></p><p>Now, what happens if they do not roll perception? </p><p></p><p>They get ambushed. </p><p></p><p>So... what happens if they do roll perception? </p><p></p><p>They get ambushed. </p><p></p><p>And, to my mind, there is clearly uncertain circumstance if they press their ears to the door to see if they can hear enemies waiting on the other side. This clearly needs a roll. </p><p></p><p></p><p>But the way you are describing this to me, in trying to be cautious and come up with a plan, they are inviting the possibility of worse things happening than just getting ambushed. Failing has to be worse than not trying. </p><p></p><p></p><p>And knowledge skills... yeah, I've heard of the idea of telling the players lies when they roll low. The problem? I let my players roll their own dice. So, they know they rolled low, and they know it is likely what they have learned is a lie. Some players will run with it, but others are going to start trying to figure out how their character can learn what they know is a lie, because it is hard for them to act in a way they know is wrong. Plus, it adds a burden on me to come up with a lie for every failed knowledge roll. Then, I also need to keep those false facts straight. </p><p></p><p>And, all to make failing worse than it already was? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, you as well fall into this "Things must become worse because you tried" camp? </p><p></p><p>And, heck, reasonable approaches abound. "I'm a cleric of the Raven Queen, who is an enemy of Orcus. This ritual is being used by a cult of Orcus, have I ever run across mention of this ritual in old texts about conflicts between my church and Orcus cultists?" </p><p></p><p>Reasonable, perfectly possible, but knowledge about this ritual might be a key to the mystery that you don't want to just hand away. However, not knowing about the ritual is the only failure of the roll, so you must give away the information by the standards you are setting down. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because it mattered to the players, even if it didn't matter to the plot. </p><p></p><p>Why am I bothering to lock a door if when the players tell me how they get through it I just say "Okay, you did it"? And sometimes, it makes sense that doors are locked. When you want to get into the Archdukes estate, after killing him, to see if you can find clues to his betrayal... the door isn't going to be unlocked. Why would it? He locks his house when he leaves like a normal person. </p><p></p><p>But, just getting a "yes, you succeed" isn't always satisfying as a player. Sometimes you want to roll dice, because it's been all politics and cloaks and daggers and you haven't gotten to kick down a door in five sessions. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What other possibilities? </p><p></p><p>A check is meant to resolve an action, if the actions success in uncertain. If I put a locked door in front of my party, and the barbarian wants to kick it down. That is a check. Rogue wants to pick the lock? Check. Bard wants to canvass the neighborhood for a locksmith to unlock the door? Check. Wizard wants to investigate the grounds for a hidden key? Check. </p><p></p><p>If they want to attempt these actions, the outcome is uncertain, so there is a check. </p><p></p><p>They have a pet giant who they have punch the door down? No check. It's a giant. </p><p></p><p>But just because that possibility exists doesn't mean the other possbilities don't exist. And this discussion is about using checks, so... we are discussing using checks</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7589915, member: 6801228"] I definetly don't see this as calling anything badwrongfun, but I do want to seek to understand here. Because, what you are saying, kills a lot of skill usage. Quick and dirty one: Perception. The team is walking through a dungeon, and they come to a doorway. They want to roll perception to see if there is an ambush waiting for them on the other side, because they've been ambushed a few times in this particular dungeon. Now, what happens if they do not roll perception? They get ambushed. So... what happens if they do roll perception? They get ambushed. And, to my mind, there is clearly uncertain circumstance if they press their ears to the door to see if they can hear enemies waiting on the other side. This clearly needs a roll. But the way you are describing this to me, in trying to be cautious and come up with a plan, they are inviting the possibility of worse things happening than just getting ambushed. Failing has to be worse than not trying. And knowledge skills... yeah, I've heard of the idea of telling the players lies when they roll low. The problem? I let my players roll their own dice. So, they know they rolled low, and they know it is likely what they have learned is a lie. Some players will run with it, but others are going to start trying to figure out how their character can learn what they know is a lie, because it is hard for them to act in a way they know is wrong. Plus, it adds a burden on me to come up with a lie for every failed knowledge roll. Then, I also need to keep those false facts straight. And, all to make failing worse than it already was? So, you as well fall into this "Things must become worse because you tried" camp? And, heck, reasonable approaches abound. "I'm a cleric of the Raven Queen, who is an enemy of Orcus. This ritual is being used by a cult of Orcus, have I ever run across mention of this ritual in old texts about conflicts between my church and Orcus cultists?" Reasonable, perfectly possible, but knowledge about this ritual might be a key to the mystery that you don't want to just hand away. However, not knowing about the ritual is the only failure of the roll, so you must give away the information by the standards you are setting down. Because it mattered to the players, even if it didn't matter to the plot. Why am I bothering to lock a door if when the players tell me how they get through it I just say "Okay, you did it"? And sometimes, it makes sense that doors are locked. When you want to get into the Archdukes estate, after killing him, to see if you can find clues to his betrayal... the door isn't going to be unlocked. Why would it? He locks his house when he leaves like a normal person. But, just getting a "yes, you succeed" isn't always satisfying as a player. Sometimes you want to roll dice, because it's been all politics and cloaks and daggers and you haven't gotten to kick down a door in five sessions. What other possibilities? A check is meant to resolve an action, if the actions success in uncertain. If I put a locked door in front of my party, and the barbarian wants to kick it down. That is a check. Rogue wants to pick the lock? Check. Bard wants to canvass the neighborhood for a locksmith to unlock the door? Check. Wizard wants to investigate the grounds for a hidden key? Check. If they want to attempt these actions, the outcome is uncertain, so there is a check. They have a pet giant who they have punch the door down? No check. It's a giant. But just because that possibility exists doesn't mean the other possbilities don't exist. And this discussion is about using checks, so... we are discussing using checks [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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