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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7590805" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Man, I kind of feel like a grump with how much humor and fun snuck into these last few pages, but I don't like ignoring people's responses. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>*facepalm*</p><p></p><p>To paraphrase, "I didn't say you were wrong, just that you were breaking the rules."</p><p></p><p>You do understand that breaking the rules is generally considered "wrong", right? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, but why keep repeating it? </p><p></p><p>I mean if the conversation is </p><p></p><p>"I say this"</p><p></p><p>"You can't"</p><p></p><p>"What's the difference between this and that"</p><p></p><p>"The rules say you can't"</p><p></p><p>"Okay, but what's the difference"</p><p></p><p>"The rules say you can't"</p><p></p><p>Wouldn't it make sense that going beyond "but the rules say" might be useful? And if you're entire point is to simply educate in where you are coming from, why do you feel the need to swoop in every time simply to remind me I am breaking the rules? I know. You've said. You can stop repeating it. I know. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So no consideration should be made about other players at the table or the DM. I should only care about myself?</p><p></p><p>Obviously that's not what you believe, but the rules don't say I need to care about the other players, so I don't have to. </p><p></p><p>I'm done with this thread of conversation. I was asked why I would ever ask to roll dice, I gave an example, I've been brought to task repeatedly for that example, and the only thing you seem to care about is the absolute supremacy of the player's autonomy. Bully for you. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right.</p><p></p><p>"I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just hiding behind all this reasonable sounding stuff to make it sound like you don't know what you are doing, and are wrong"</p><p></p><p>Getting bored of this. Just come out and say what you mean. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, my confusion stems from the fact that considering the context, asking to roll will tell me what actions a player intends to take 80% or more of the time. </p><p></p><p>Yet, that is impossible because the rules say a check isn't an action... nowhere really, it is just heavily implied.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay this? This is a reasonable concern. </p><p></p><p>And, generally, if a specific thing like touching would make a difference, I ask the player "Okay, do you touch it or are you keeping your distance". And I don't always do it for bad things, sometimes it is for benefits, but as long as I am careful I can mitigate that risk. </p><p></p><p>And, if a player wants to give me more detailed information of what they are doing, I'll accept that. I'm fine with it, I just do not demand that they never say "I roll perception" and I don't chastise or try to lead them out of it if they do. There is enough of an understanding of the fiction between myself and the player to move forward, and I'm not worried about offending them. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Time comes to mind. If you end up always getting three to four actions to resolve a single challenge, you are very likely to end up bloating up obstacles. Especially if you are building uncertainty into your players minds. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First off, no hard feelings, this thread has stretched long and it is easy to lump and confuse things. </p><p></p><p>As to why I don't give out DCs... I like to keep the mystery I suppose. Sometimes the person you are talking to is more dangerous than they appear, and intimidating them is a DC 25, not a DC 10. But hearing that intimidating the foppish bard you found tied up in the woods is a DC 25 gives away the game of slowly revealing who it really is. </p><p></p><p>That isn't to say I don't give them any idea of the challenge. A rogue looking to pick a lock is going to be able to get a decent sense of how hard a lock it is, but I don't feel compelled to tell them an exact number, or tell them about the hidden glyph that might go off if they fail. </p><p></p><p>Also, as a player, I'm fine just knowing "easy, medium, hard, really hard" because knowing the exact number turns on my math brain. Every number on a d20 is 5%, mod is X, so I need DC-X which is Y%. It turns my risky maneuver into a math equation to be solved, and I don't want that when I'm doing skill checks. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because it can be interesting. It forces us to come up with a why, and sometimes I just don't let them try. I say "no", but when I'm uncertain... the dice get rolled. That's their job. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with you. </p><p></p><p>But I don't like absolutes, and for example, a 20 rogue saying they use stroke of luck, I'm probably not going to bother actually rolling the die, but I would still count that as a "skill check" </p><p></p><p>A difference seems to be that you think this thread about skills is somehow a thread about "Actions players can take". Those are different types of discussions, we didn't start this thread with "What are all the ways you can tell an NPC is lying" it started with "If an NPC is telling the truth, and Insight is rolled, what DC is it to know they are telling the truth" </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It was an absurd example, specifically called out to be an absurd example by the poster. </p><p></p><p>But, poor style is still poor style, and it bugged me. So I addressed the style concern. I have never and will never say that a payer who said all those things would have to roll a die and have any potential for failure. I have repeatedly said they would have automatically succeeded. </p><p></p><p>But saying "No, you fail, take damage" is really poor technique. And I reserve the right to critique style when an example is called out to be absurd and not meant to be taken as a serious argument.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7590805, member: 6801228"] Man, I kind of feel like a grump with how much humor and fun snuck into these last few pages, but I don't like ignoring people's responses. *facepalm* To paraphrase, "I didn't say you were wrong, just that you were breaking the rules." You do understand that breaking the rules is generally considered "wrong", right? Okay, but why keep repeating it? I mean if the conversation is "I say this" "You can't" "What's the difference between this and that" "The rules say you can't" "Okay, but what's the difference" "The rules say you can't" Wouldn't it make sense that going beyond "but the rules say" might be useful? And if you're entire point is to simply educate in where you are coming from, why do you feel the need to swoop in every time simply to remind me I am breaking the rules? I know. You've said. You can stop repeating it. I know. So no consideration should be made about other players at the table or the DM. I should only care about myself? Obviously that's not what you believe, but the rules don't say I need to care about the other players, so I don't have to. I'm done with this thread of conversation. I was asked why I would ever ask to roll dice, I gave an example, I've been brought to task repeatedly for that example, and the only thing you seem to care about is the absolute supremacy of the player's autonomy. Bully for you. Right. "I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just hiding behind all this reasonable sounding stuff to make it sound like you don't know what you are doing, and are wrong" Getting bored of this. Just come out and say what you mean. Right, my confusion stems from the fact that considering the context, asking to roll will tell me what actions a player intends to take 80% or more of the time. Yet, that is impossible because the rules say a check isn't an action... nowhere really, it is just heavily implied. Okay this? This is a reasonable concern. And, generally, if a specific thing like touching would make a difference, I ask the player "Okay, do you touch it or are you keeping your distance". And I don't always do it for bad things, sometimes it is for benefits, but as long as I am careful I can mitigate that risk. And, if a player wants to give me more detailed information of what they are doing, I'll accept that. I'm fine with it, I just do not demand that they never say "I roll perception" and I don't chastise or try to lead them out of it if they do. There is enough of an understanding of the fiction between myself and the player to move forward, and I'm not worried about offending them. Time comes to mind. If you end up always getting three to four actions to resolve a single challenge, you are very likely to end up bloating up obstacles. Especially if you are building uncertainty into your players minds. First off, no hard feelings, this thread has stretched long and it is easy to lump and confuse things. As to why I don't give out DCs... I like to keep the mystery I suppose. Sometimes the person you are talking to is more dangerous than they appear, and intimidating them is a DC 25, not a DC 10. But hearing that intimidating the foppish bard you found tied up in the woods is a DC 25 gives away the game of slowly revealing who it really is. That isn't to say I don't give them any idea of the challenge. A rogue looking to pick a lock is going to be able to get a decent sense of how hard a lock it is, but I don't feel compelled to tell them an exact number, or tell them about the hidden glyph that might go off if they fail. Also, as a player, I'm fine just knowing "easy, medium, hard, really hard" because knowing the exact number turns on my math brain. Every number on a d20 is 5%, mod is X, so I need DC-X which is Y%. It turns my risky maneuver into a math equation to be solved, and I don't want that when I'm doing skill checks. Because it can be interesting. It forces us to come up with a why, and sometimes I just don't let them try. I say "no", but when I'm uncertain... the dice get rolled. That's their job. I agree with you. But I don't like absolutes, and for example, a 20 rogue saying they use stroke of luck, I'm probably not going to bother actually rolling the die, but I would still count that as a "skill check" A difference seems to be that you think this thread about skills is somehow a thread about "Actions players can take". Those are different types of discussions, we didn't start this thread with "What are all the ways you can tell an NPC is lying" it started with "If an NPC is telling the truth, and Insight is rolled, what DC is it to know they are telling the truth" It was an absurd example, specifically called out to be an absurd example by the poster. But, poor style is still poor style, and it bugged me. So I addressed the style concern. I have never and will never say that a payer who said all those things would have to roll a die and have any potential for failure. I have repeatedly said they would have automatically succeeded. But saying "No, you fail, take damage" is really poor technique. And I reserve the right to critique style when an example is called out to be absurd and not meant to be taken as a serious argument. [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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