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General Tabletop Discussion
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7591252" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Yeah, I guess I come across a little hostile towards the idea of trying to enforce speech patterns (and that came out hostile too), but I've mostly been defending myself for the past week, so I'm going to be a tiny bit bristly. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Also, tone is hard in these sort of discussions. A sarcastic "Yes, you are right my confusion comes from you saying I'm not declaring actions when I am declaring actions" might not come across fully. </p><p></p><p>Then again, I'd like to point something out. I'm not quoting the rulebook at people. Which is what I was objecting too. See, [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] has been quoting the same passage of the book for this entire thread. Saying the exact same thing, over and over and over. If you want to compare my typed out answers to that, well, I can't stop you. However, the comparison between my debate and a repeated "read the rules on page 15 of the Player's Handbook" is stretching it in my opinion. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A goal and an approach. </p><p></p><p>"I want to roll perception to listen for an ambush beyond the door" would work. "I want to roll perception to see if I notice an ambush beyond the door" wouldn't? "Man, there have been a lot of ambushes in this dungeon. Bet there's another one lined up. I want to roll perception, let's see if we can get the drop on them instead" wouldn't? "I want to use my senses to detect if there is an ambush up ahead, may I roll perception?"</p><p></p><p>Maybe it is just because I'm writing the examples, but the approach is decently laid out in all four. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, I believe you. But, I wonder if we have different ideas of certainty and uncertainty. </p><p></p><p>See, I hate "Certainty" in a lot of ways. If my players are "certain" they can walk through a dungeon and catch every trap, then why am I bothering to place traps. They wouldn't be "certain" without hard evidence they could do so, and if they ahve that kind of assurance, then it means there is no point in caring about the traps. </p><p></p><p>But, if they only think that the Duke is behind everything, even if they've got a lot of evidence, then it will be good to be proven right. They are only "certain" after it has been resolved. The "uncertainty" makes it more interesting. </p><p></p><p>And usually this doesn't apply to abilities, but sometimes it does. I've on the spot homebrewed a lot of things. I've had clerics roll spellcasting checks and use channel divinity to cleanse an area of corruption, or heal a torn soul (literal). They aren't certain these things are allowed, but they are certain they can ask, and if it makes sense in the fiction (and doesn't unbalance the mechanics of the game too horribly) I've got a decent chance of allowing it. They trust I'm not going to have them waste time on things that aren't going to change, but there is some wiggle in what exactly their abilities can do. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fair enough, but a lot of things are defined by the rules in ways we don't use them. For example, there is no action for swimming or climbing. Those are types of movement. So, by a purely tyrannical reading of the rules if you ask a player to give you an action, and they say "swim to the other side of the river" they are wrong, because the game defines actions and that isn't one. </p><p></p><p>It's why I don't like this idea of "but this is very specific in the rules, so you can't use the term this way" because we use terms all the time in ways that aren't quite 100% accurate, and being 100% accurate all the time leads to more problems than it solves. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nope, perfectly fine premise. Just narrow in scope. </p><p></p><p>It would only be flawed if it had been intended to address people who did not think a roll was necessary, but by specifying a roll is being asked about, it tells you that those people are not being addressed. </p><p></p><p>Now, we've obviously moved far far away from the premise of this thread, but it is worth considering. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I gave an alternate style of the result, then got swarmed by people calling me out for taking away player authority, and defending why in my circumstances that has become a natural outlet. </p><p></p><p>While the entire time I have said that I would have allowed wiping the handle to bypass the check. </p><p></p><p>If people want to pile on me, that is fine, just don't accuse me of making claims I never made. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm only dying because people are stabbing me. </p><p></p><p>This is like ordering food at a burger joint with a friend who gets ketchup with their fries and hates coca-cola, saying you prefer mustard to ketchup for your fries. Then getting screamed down because your friend doesn't like coca-cola and how dare you implicitly accept that coca-cola isn't the primary drink of burger joints across the nation. </p><p></p><p>It was never the point, but I've spent so much time defending something I never said that you seem to be convinced I had to have agreed with it somewhere.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7591252, member: 6801228"] Yeah, I guess I come across a little hostile towards the idea of trying to enforce speech patterns (and that came out hostile too), but I've mostly been defending myself for the past week, so I'm going to be a tiny bit bristly. Also, tone is hard in these sort of discussions. A sarcastic "Yes, you are right my confusion comes from you saying I'm not declaring actions when I am declaring actions" might not come across fully. Then again, I'd like to point something out. I'm not quoting the rulebook at people. Which is what I was objecting too. See, [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] has been quoting the same passage of the book for this entire thread. Saying the exact same thing, over and over and over. If you want to compare my typed out answers to that, well, I can't stop you. However, the comparison between my debate and a repeated "read the rules on page 15 of the Player's Handbook" is stretching it in my opinion. A goal and an approach. "I want to roll perception to listen for an ambush beyond the door" would work. "I want to roll perception to see if I notice an ambush beyond the door" wouldn't? "Man, there have been a lot of ambushes in this dungeon. Bet there's another one lined up. I want to roll perception, let's see if we can get the drop on them instead" wouldn't? "I want to use my senses to detect if there is an ambush up ahead, may I roll perception?" Maybe it is just because I'm writing the examples, but the approach is decently laid out in all four. Sure, I believe you. But, I wonder if we have different ideas of certainty and uncertainty. See, I hate "Certainty" in a lot of ways. If my players are "certain" they can walk through a dungeon and catch every trap, then why am I bothering to place traps. They wouldn't be "certain" without hard evidence they could do so, and if they ahve that kind of assurance, then it means there is no point in caring about the traps. But, if they only think that the Duke is behind everything, even if they've got a lot of evidence, then it will be good to be proven right. They are only "certain" after it has been resolved. The "uncertainty" makes it more interesting. And usually this doesn't apply to abilities, but sometimes it does. I've on the spot homebrewed a lot of things. I've had clerics roll spellcasting checks and use channel divinity to cleanse an area of corruption, or heal a torn soul (literal). They aren't certain these things are allowed, but they are certain they can ask, and if it makes sense in the fiction (and doesn't unbalance the mechanics of the game too horribly) I've got a decent chance of allowing it. They trust I'm not going to have them waste time on things that aren't going to change, but there is some wiggle in what exactly their abilities can do. Fair enough, but a lot of things are defined by the rules in ways we don't use them. For example, there is no action for swimming or climbing. Those are types of movement. So, by a purely tyrannical reading of the rules if you ask a player to give you an action, and they say "swim to the other side of the river" they are wrong, because the game defines actions and that isn't one. It's why I don't like this idea of "but this is very specific in the rules, so you can't use the term this way" because we use terms all the time in ways that aren't quite 100% accurate, and being 100% accurate all the time leads to more problems than it solves. Nope, perfectly fine premise. Just narrow in scope. It would only be flawed if it had been intended to address people who did not think a roll was necessary, but by specifying a roll is being asked about, it tells you that those people are not being addressed. Now, we've obviously moved far far away from the premise of this thread, but it is worth considering. I gave an alternate style of the result, then got swarmed by people calling me out for taking away player authority, and defending why in my circumstances that has become a natural outlet. While the entire time I have said that I would have allowed wiping the handle to bypass the check. If people want to pile on me, that is fine, just don't accuse me of making claims I never made. I'm only dying because people are stabbing me. This is like ordering food at a burger joint with a friend who gets ketchup with their fries and hates coca-cola, saying you prefer mustard to ketchup for your fries. Then getting screamed down because your friend doesn't like coca-cola and how dare you implicitly accept that coca-cola isn't the primary drink of burger joints across the nation. It was never the point, but I've spent so much time defending something I never said that you seem to be convinced I had to have agreed with it somewhere. [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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