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General Tabletop Discussion
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Guest 6801328" data-source="post: 7591418"><p>Ok, fair point. I was scanning for the pattern I use [approach] to accomplish [goal], so in each case Perception sounded like the approach, and I read, for example, "listen for an ambush beyond the door" as a goal. If he had just said, "I listen for an ambush beyond the door" I can see that being a goal and an approach.</p><p></p><p>However, I will say that in each case the approach is awfully vague. Especially "use my senses".</p><p></p><p>I think in many ways this comes back to a recurring theme in this thread: one side keeps assuming a model of "listen randomly at every door and check it for traps" or "check every NPC to see if they are lying" of play. And if that's the case, then yeah it gets a little unwieldy to describe approach in detail every time, and it also would feel like mere embellishment...a charge Oofta, for example, keep leveling.</p><p></p><p>But if the players know they don't have to listen at every door, then when they get to the door they do suspect they really need to listen to, they might have a more specific approach. Silly example, but imagine there are 4 doors: you have every reason to believe that behind 3 of them are sleeping giants, and behind the 4th is the princess you are trying to rescue. Now the players can say, "Ok, everybody be really quiet...I'm going to listen for deep breathing behind the doors" or maybe "I'm going to get down at the bottom of the door and take a deep whiff and see if I can catch a trace of that perfume we found."</p><p></p><p>Whether or not the DM calls for a Perception check depends on whether he thinks there's uncertainty. If the doors are thick and lead to hallways, at the end of which are sleeping giants, maybe he/she calls for a roll. If they are literally sleeping right beyond the doors, maybe he doesn't. And if one of the rooms is actually empty, maybe he/she just says no. (Players of such a DM would already know that not rolling doesn't mean anything one way or the other.)</p><p></p><p>As for "using my senses to get the drop on enemies", I would say that I could see one's senses being useful in achieving this goal, but I would want a lot more specificity in the approach.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Guest 6801328, post: 7591418"] Ok, fair point. I was scanning for the pattern I use [approach] to accomplish [goal], so in each case Perception sounded like the approach, and I read, for example, "listen for an ambush beyond the door" as a goal. If he had just said, "I listen for an ambush beyond the door" I can see that being a goal and an approach. However, I will say that in each case the approach is awfully vague. Especially "use my senses". I think in many ways this comes back to a recurring theme in this thread: one side keeps assuming a model of "listen randomly at every door and check it for traps" or "check every NPC to see if they are lying" of play. And if that's the case, then yeah it gets a little unwieldy to describe approach in detail every time, and it also would feel like mere embellishment...a charge Oofta, for example, keep leveling. But if the players know they don't have to listen at every door, then when they get to the door they do suspect they really need to listen to, they might have a more specific approach. Silly example, but imagine there are 4 doors: you have every reason to believe that behind 3 of them are sleeping giants, and behind the 4th is the princess you are trying to rescue. Now the players can say, "Ok, everybody be really quiet...I'm going to listen for deep breathing behind the doors" or maybe "I'm going to get down at the bottom of the door and take a deep whiff and see if I can catch a trace of that perfume we found." Whether or not the DM calls for a Perception check depends on whether he thinks there's uncertainty. If the doors are thick and lead to hallways, at the end of which are sleeping giants, maybe he/she calls for a roll. If they are literally sleeping right beyond the doors, maybe he doesn't. And if one of the rooms is actually empty, maybe he/she just says no. (Players of such a DM would already know that not rolling doesn't mean anything one way or the other.) As for "using my senses to get the drop on enemies", I would say that I could see one's senses being useful in achieving this goal, but I would want a lot more specificity in the approach. [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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