Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 7591917" data-attributes="member: 6779196"><p>Sorry, I copy and paste quote tags a lot, and sometimes things get mixed up. My bad there.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, because the thing you’re doing is defined by the rules as an ability check. You’re just skipping the roll for expediency’s sake.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Did the approach of flagging down the waitress have a reasonable chance of succeeding in the goal of getting her to come to your table, a reasonachance of failing to do so, and a cost for attempting or consequence for failing? If so, then why are you skipping the dice roll? If not, then an ability check is not the proper method of adjudicating the action, and there’s no reason for that DC5 to just be out there, existing in isolation of an action that requires a check to resolve.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Reliable Talent is only applicable to ability checks, ergo if Reliable Talent is coming into play, there must be a reasonable chance of the approach succeeding in achieving the goal, a reasonable chance of the approach failing to achieve the goal, and a cost for attempting or consequence for failing. If you choose to skip the actual dice rolling part because the effect of Reliable Talent makes it impossible to get a roll result lower than the DC, that’s fine, but it doesn’t make the process of comparing your lowest possible result to a DC not a check.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, and my point was that your reason for calling for a roll despite the results not actually mattering (namely that your players like to roll dice) is a result of the fact that calling for rolls that have no consequence for failure changes the incentives in your game. In your game, checks are how things get done. You break down doors by succeeding on Strength (athletics) checks, and failing Strength (athletics) checks doesn’t really mean anything, except that you didn’t manage to break down the door, or didn’t manage to break it down right away. Naturally players want to roll in a game where that is the procedure. In my games, you don’t break down doors by succeeding on checks, you open doors by breaking them down, and if something bad could happen as a result of you trying to break the door down, then a check is how we decide if that bad thing happens or not. Naturally, players in my games want to avoid making checks. I like that incentive my style creates. I want plauers thinking about what their characters can do to insure the best possibility of success, not what check they have the highest bonus to.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, and I took issue with the fact that your way of narrating that failure necessarily contradicted the player’s description of their character’s action. DMs narrating what the PCs do is something I find extremely distasteful, and in the example given, the only way to make the failure make sense was by narrating what the PC did. That would not have been necessary if the DM in the example had followed the goal and approach method of task resolution. That’s my point, and I’m 99% sure it was Elfcrusher’s point too: that the method of task resolution where the players accomplish things by succeeding on checks leads to situations where narrating failure requires the DM to narrate what the PC does. Avoiding this kind of scenario is one of the main reasons I prefer goal and approach.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 7591917, member: 6779196"] Sorry, I copy and paste quote tags a lot, and sometimes things get mixed up. My bad there. Yes, because the thing you’re doing is defined by the rules as an ability check. You’re just skipping the roll for expediency’s sake. Did the approach of flagging down the waitress have a reasonable chance of succeeding in the goal of getting her to come to your table, a reasonachance of failing to do so, and a cost for attempting or consequence for failing? If so, then why are you skipping the dice roll? If not, then an ability check is not the proper method of adjudicating the action, and there’s no reason for that DC5 to just be out there, existing in isolation of an action that requires a check to resolve. Reliable Talent is only applicable to ability checks, ergo if Reliable Talent is coming into play, there must be a reasonable chance of the approach succeeding in achieving the goal, a reasonable chance of the approach failing to achieve the goal, and a cost for attempting or consequence for failing. If you choose to skip the actual dice rolling part because the effect of Reliable Talent makes it impossible to get a roll result lower than the DC, that’s fine, but it doesn’t make the process of comparing your lowest possible result to a DC not a check. Right, and my point was that your reason for calling for a roll despite the results not actually mattering (namely that your players like to roll dice) is a result of the fact that calling for rolls that have no consequence for failure changes the incentives in your game. In your game, checks are how things get done. You break down doors by succeeding on Strength (athletics) checks, and failing Strength (athletics) checks doesn’t really mean anything, except that you didn’t manage to break down the door, or didn’t manage to break it down right away. Naturally players want to roll in a game where that is the procedure. In my games, you don’t break down doors by succeeding on checks, you open doors by breaking them down, and if something bad could happen as a result of you trying to break the door down, then a check is how we decide if that bad thing happens or not. Naturally, players in my games want to avoid making checks. I like that incentive my style creates. I want plauers thinking about what their characters can do to insure the best possibility of success, not what check they have the highest bonus to. Yes, and I took issue with the fact that your way of narrating that failure necessarily contradicted the player’s description of their character’s action. DMs narrating what the PCs do is something I find extremely distasteful, and in the example given, the only way to make the failure make sense was by narrating what the PC did. That would not have been necessary if the DM in the example had followed the goal and approach method of task resolution. That’s my point, and I’m 99% sure it was Elfcrusher’s point too: that the method of task resolution where the players accomplish things by succeeding on checks leads to situations where narrating failure requires the DM to narrate what the PC does. Avoiding this kind of scenario is one of the main reasons I prefer goal and approach. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
Top