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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Bawylie" data-source="post: 7594505" data-attributes="member: 6776133"><p>This was my fault for trying to use an example. Dang. </p><p></p><p>Alright, we seem to have missed a key component. The two adventurers both tried to do exactly the same thing (get think king to loan the vanguard for the dance competition) in exactly the same way (by pointing out how much goodwill the vanguard would earn among the common people). I judged that thing hard (because the king doesn’t care too much about the vanguard’s reputation among commoners) and set an appropriately hard DC.</p><p></p><p>In that example, it did not matter how good of a speech either player gave. That approach to achieving that goal was Hard.</p><p></p><p>Now let’s change it up and say the Cha 20 adventurer trained in persuasion still wants to do the same thing. Get the king to lend the vanguard for the dance competition. I’ve already determined that’s a Cha (persuasion) check DC 20. </p><p></p><p>But - our Cha 10 character is going to try something else. The goal is the same (get the king to lend the vanguard for the dance competition). But they take a different approach. They say “my uncle is a powerful diviner and if you lend me the vanguard for the dance competition, I will introduce your vizier to my uncle.” </p><p></p><p>I think this is more interesting to the King than the goodwill of the common people. He’s going to get something out of this that may pay off well over time. A vizier that has an “in” with someone who can read the future is pretty good. So I’ll say this is a DC 10 because the king values the connections of his vizier more than the reputation of his vanguard. </p><p></p><p>Both adventurers have the same goal. The Persuasive character faces a hard check (but he’s got a +8 to the roll). The Cha 10 character faces an easy check but has a +0 to the roll. </p><p></p><p>The approach they employ to achieve their goal helps determine the DC. This is why “I persuade” isn’t good enough. One of those characters offered a more persuasive incentive than the other. They are rewarded with a lower DC (or as others might do - maybe they get advantage on the roll). </p><p></p><p>Because I won’t set the DC until I at least know what they’re trying to do and how, it’s not fair or appropriate for a roll before I decide on a DC. </p><p></p><p>—————</p><p>Finally let’s consider that our Cha 10 character tries a different approach altogether. The goal is the same. But they say “I am taking your vanguard with or without your permission. This is merely a formality to let you know where they are. My uncle is an extremely powerful sorcerer and will raze your kingdom if you oppose me in this most trivial of matters.” As a DM I am not certain whether that is true (in which case Intimidate might apply) or not (in which case Deception might apply). The king isn’t sure either. So I ask the player what is more accurate - are you bluffing or threatening? (They don’t have training in either so they simply decide they’re threatening). I think that might work and ask for a DC 15. If they can credibly deliver that threat, the king will lend the vanguard (and remember this insolence for a long time). </p><p></p><p>It wouldn’t be enough to say “I intimidate” and throw dice. If the character threatened something the king didn’t fear or value (“do it or ill tel everyone you’re mean!”), it might not have a chance to work at all. Whereas if the threat included something the king valued highly (“do it or I’ll fireball you this instant!”), there might have been no chance to fail.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bawylie, post: 7594505, member: 6776133"] This was my fault for trying to use an example. Dang. Alright, we seem to have missed a key component. The two adventurers both tried to do exactly the same thing (get think king to loan the vanguard for the dance competition) in exactly the same way (by pointing out how much goodwill the vanguard would earn among the common people). I judged that thing hard (because the king doesn’t care too much about the vanguard’s reputation among commoners) and set an appropriately hard DC. In that example, it did not matter how good of a speech either player gave. That approach to achieving that goal was Hard. Now let’s change it up and say the Cha 20 adventurer trained in persuasion still wants to do the same thing. Get the king to lend the vanguard for the dance competition. I’ve already determined that’s a Cha (persuasion) check DC 20. But - our Cha 10 character is going to try something else. The goal is the same (get the king to lend the vanguard for the dance competition). But they take a different approach. They say “my uncle is a powerful diviner and if you lend me the vanguard for the dance competition, I will introduce your vizier to my uncle.” I think this is more interesting to the King than the goodwill of the common people. He’s going to get something out of this that may pay off well over time. A vizier that has an “in” with someone who can read the future is pretty good. So I’ll say this is a DC 10 because the king values the connections of his vizier more than the reputation of his vanguard. Both adventurers have the same goal. The Persuasive character faces a hard check (but he’s got a +8 to the roll). The Cha 10 character faces an easy check but has a +0 to the roll. The approach they employ to achieve their goal helps determine the DC. This is why “I persuade” isn’t good enough. One of those characters offered a more persuasive incentive than the other. They are rewarded with a lower DC (or as others might do - maybe they get advantage on the roll). Because I won’t set the DC until I at least know what they’re trying to do and how, it’s not fair or appropriate for a roll before I decide on a DC. ————— Finally let’s consider that our Cha 10 character tries a different approach altogether. The goal is the same. But they say “I am taking your vanguard with or without your permission. This is merely a formality to let you know where they are. My uncle is an extremely powerful sorcerer and will raze your kingdom if you oppose me in this most trivial of matters.” As a DM I am not certain whether that is true (in which case Intimidate might apply) or not (in which case Deception might apply). The king isn’t sure either. So I ask the player what is more accurate - are you bluffing or threatening? (They don’t have training in either so they simply decide they’re threatening). I think that might work and ask for a DC 15. If they can credibly deliver that threat, the king will lend the vanguard (and remember this insolence for a long time). It wouldn’t be enough to say “I intimidate” and throw dice. If the character threatened something the king didn’t fear or value (“do it or ill tel everyone you’re mean!”), it might not have a chance to work at all. Whereas if the threat included something the king valued highly (“do it or I’ll fireball you this instant!”), there might have been no chance to fail. [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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