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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Guest 6801328" data-source="post: 7595507">I think the point he is making is that somebody without "training" (by which I assume you mean proficiency) and 10 Cha, or even 8 Cha, is really about average: no bonuses, or maybe a -5% penalty.  You describe this guy as How do you figure that no bonus to something, or perhaps a -5% penalty, makes somebody "terrible" at whatever that task is?Sure, statistically that average person will fail more often at hard tasks.  But I just find it odd to call the absence of bonus "terrible".I would describe it as..."average".  He is not particularly persuasive, but neither is he particularly bumbling or offensive.  In other words, if he comes up with a plan for persuading an NPC to do something, he has a normal chance of succeeding.</blockquote>