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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7595975" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>Ummm... unless I am misunderstanding again... you are saying it (rabbit hole goal and blah blah) doesnt slow **your** gameplay down. </p><p></p><p>Or are you actually speaking for everyone's games?</p><p></p><p>Examples you seem to use include cases where there is confusion over what being tried, where players and GMs have widely different views on what ability scores even represent, etc. </p><p></p><p>Our examples are cases where they do share common understanding and these kinds of issues come up so rarely they dont add up to squat time wise compared to the time saved by getting the dice and check done right off the bat, no back and forth waiting for GM to pre-approve the obvious roll that will be coming.</p><p></p><p>Or are you saying we are lying when we say it would slow down our game play?</p><p></p><p>For the record, I am perfectly willing to accept that goal and approach likely does speed up your gameplay. But I consider that s comment about the nature of your gameplay before and after, not about the merits of the approach to others. </p><p></p><p> See, this gets back to the position put forth, the spin, that the alternative we suggest isnt the middle path but is rolling for everything.</p><p></p><p>You claim right there "Since you don't use goal-and-approach you are just imagining it slowing the game down, but you have no evidence."</p><p></p><p>That's bull. </p><p></p><p>There are cases in my game, in hussars, in ooftas in most every GMs game where the circumstances are not clear and where the player doesnt jump to "skill check" because it's not so obvious - and then we do more detailed kinds of what do you do and so on type of gameplay.</p><p></p><p> Those are great. But we dont need that for every wall climb thats an obstacle/challenge and every door listen and every time a check might be needed. Often enough, in our games not necessarily yours, we and our players are on the same page and so we font need that.</p><p></p><p>See, we acknowledge generally that we use both. Hussar said ***if there's a ladder thry climb it, it's not a challenge and it's never been unclear that they did it cuz thry said do***(paraphrasing them but those were explicitly stated) yet now you say "Since you don't use goal-and-approach you are just imagining it slowing the game down, but you have no evidence."</p><p></p><p>Just what- a page removed (actuslly, same page) and already we go from explicit claims the we use goal and approach to claims we dont. </p><p></p><p>I know that if I stopped every I climb the wall athletics check 17" and insisted on thrm telling me how just because in some cases there may be ladders they forgot to mention, it would slow things down for my games.</p><p></p><p>That said, there is another common sieve down this rabbit hole usually trotted out when pace of game gets trotted out: telegraphing.</p><p></p><p>Frequently snuck in with the rabbit hole of goal and approach on time is the "all traps telegraphed" and " info is just given not gated behind (character) skill checks" and other such stuff. Often its put forth and packaged for easy swallowing as "the fun is what they do after, not whether or not they get it" and that kinds of stuff.</p><p></p><p>I get that, really I do, but I dont agree with it as a strong guiding principle or that it overall results in more fun - far as me and mine go. </p><p></p><p>Attended a session of HERO supers once where each session started at the briefing outside the mall/lab/other scene of crisis snd within 5 mins real time the heroes were inside the "arena de jour" slugging away with bad guys. When I asked obliquely about it, they said in response "we used to fo morectoleplay, starting you in your secret I'd when the news came out so you had to spend a few mins getting out of the office to get here... but we decided to stop that and just get to the fun stuff"</p><p></p><p>So, yeah, telegraphing as core design - all traps are telegraphed- yeah - that will really speed up play. But that is separate from goal and rabbit holes. It's also, well, let's say highly subjective as to whether it's fun or more gun orca better game to say all traps in this world will be telegraphed **to the players**."</p><p></p><p>But hey, all this talk of rabbits and carrots has made me hungry and stews take a while to cook and some things dont gr better by faster, so... off to cook.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7595975, member: 6919838"] Ummm... unless I am misunderstanding again... you are saying it (rabbit hole goal and blah blah) doesnt slow **your** gameplay down. Or are you actually speaking for everyone's games? Examples you seem to use include cases where there is confusion over what being tried, where players and GMs have widely different views on what ability scores even represent, etc. Our examples are cases where they do share common understanding and these kinds of issues come up so rarely they dont add up to squat time wise compared to the time saved by getting the dice and check done right off the bat, no back and forth waiting for GM to pre-approve the obvious roll that will be coming. Or are you saying we are lying when we say it would slow down our game play? For the record, I am perfectly willing to accept that goal and approach likely does speed up your gameplay. But I consider that s comment about the nature of your gameplay before and after, not about the merits of the approach to others. See, this gets back to the position put forth, the spin, that the alternative we suggest isnt the middle path but is rolling for everything. You claim right there "Since you don't use goal-and-approach you are just imagining it slowing the game down, but you have no evidence." That's bull. There are cases in my game, in hussars, in ooftas in most every GMs game where the circumstances are not clear and where the player doesnt jump to "skill check" because it's not so obvious - and then we do more detailed kinds of what do you do and so on type of gameplay. Those are great. But we dont need that for every wall climb thats an obstacle/challenge and every door listen and every time a check might be needed. Often enough, in our games not necessarily yours, we and our players are on the same page and so we font need that. See, we acknowledge generally that we use both. Hussar said ***if there's a ladder thry climb it, it's not a challenge and it's never been unclear that they did it cuz thry said do***(paraphrasing them but those were explicitly stated) yet now you say "Since you don't use goal-and-approach you are just imagining it slowing the game down, but you have no evidence." Just what- a page removed (actuslly, same page) and already we go from explicit claims the we use goal and approach to claims we dont. I know that if I stopped every I climb the wall athletics check 17" and insisted on thrm telling me how just because in some cases there may be ladders they forgot to mention, it would slow things down for my games. That said, there is another common sieve down this rabbit hole usually trotted out when pace of game gets trotted out: telegraphing. Frequently snuck in with the rabbit hole of goal and approach on time is the "all traps telegraphed" and " info is just given not gated behind (character) skill checks" and other such stuff. Often its put forth and packaged for easy swallowing as "the fun is what they do after, not whether or not they get it" and that kinds of stuff. I get that, really I do, but I dont agree with it as a strong guiding principle or that it overall results in more fun - far as me and mine go. Attended a session of HERO supers once where each session started at the briefing outside the mall/lab/other scene of crisis snd within 5 mins real time the heroes were inside the "arena de jour" slugging away with bad guys. When I asked obliquely about it, they said in response "we used to fo morectoleplay, starting you in your secret I'd when the news came out so you had to spend a few mins getting out of the office to get here... but we decided to stop that and just get to the fun stuff" So, yeah, telegraphing as core design - all traps are telegraphed- yeah - that will really speed up play. But that is separate from goal and rabbit holes. It's also, well, let's say highly subjective as to whether it's fun or more gun orca better game to say all traps in this world will be telegraphed **to the players**." But hey, all this talk of rabbits and carrots has made me hungry and stews take a while to cook and some things dont gr better by faster, so... off to cook. [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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