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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7597195" data-attributes="member: 42582">Well, except maybe for this passage on p 61 of the Basic PDF:When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check.You there very clearly refers to the player of the PC.Page 62 also has the following, contrasting, passages:Perception. Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. . . . Survival. The DM might ask you to make a Wisdom (Survival) check to follow tracks . . .The rule for survivial suggests that the check is made at GM instigation to adjudicate some action. The rule for perception suggests that the perception check is mandated by the rules as a type of model of the infiction process of the PC looking around.Just as we can only speculate as to why the skill text in the Basic PDF for 5e seems to take 3 different approaches across the 3 entries of Investigation, Perception and Survival.Whose expectation? The DMG and PHB for 4e came out in 2008 - were expectations changed by a book published two years later?Did the RC change its text because it was wanting to bring the rules text more closely into line with observed play practices? In which case one could hardly assert its normative force.Anyway, given the text I've quoted from the 4e DMG and the text you've quoted from the 4e PHB, I hope you can see why I don't see the cleavage in systems being as great as you do in respect of GM and player roles. The key difference I see is that the 4e rules assume that checks will be made at moments of drama, whereas the 5e rules as applied by [MENTION=6779196]Charlaquin[/MENTION] and (I think) you expect players to be angling for no check even at moments of drama. My own framework for making sense of this contrast is between "say 'yes' or roll the dice" (4e) and classic skilled play, which in my view doesn't involve "pixel bitching" as you have described it upthread, but does involve leveraging the fiction to generate desired results by way of free narration (5e "goal and approach" as articulated in this thread).</blockquote>

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