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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 7598784" data-attributes="member: 6779196"><p>*shrug* sorry? Like I said, I can't remember a specific example off the top of my head. You'll fall into the pit. Whatever.</p><p></p><p> </p><p>Most players who have been playing in one of my games for more than a few sessions are going to have a pretty good idea of what actions are going to take 10 minutes. I've talked about this before in the thread, but 10 minutes (the amount of time it takes to cast a spell as a ritual) is my go-to length of time for actions where time spent is the only cost. Picking a lock, thoroughly searching the evil vizier's desk, whatever. It's technically an abstract amount of time spent, and may be slightly more or less than 10 minutes, but either way, 6 such abstract time intervals spent add up to one hour (the amount of time it takes to take a short rest), which is also technically somewhat abstract, but it's the interval at which I roll for random encounters. And when I say "random encounters," I mean encounters that occur randomly, not necessarily encounters that are themselves randomly generated. The random element is <em>when</em> they happen, not <em>what</em> happens when they are rolled.</p><p></p><p>I too generally have a set of planned encounters that are appropriate to the dungeon or the adventure, and generally serve the story at hand. Often they come in a specific order. For instance, I'm currently running my players through the dungeons in Tales from the Yawning Portal. When we get to White Plume Mountain, I plan for the party to not be the only group of adventurers following the clues to find Whelm, Wave, and Blackrazor. We're still on Forge of Fury, so I don't have the "random" encounters for White Plume Mountain planned out yet, but my intent for when we get there is to have a set of encounters with other adventurers seeking the weapons that occur in a specific progression. But progress will be made by way of dice rolls that occur roughly once each hour, or rather, once every 6 times the players take an action where time spent is the cost. Additionally, actions that make a lot of noise or otherwise attract attention to the party can trigger extra rolls for these encounters, though generally with a lower chance of resulting in an encounter.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You don't have to use it for <em>any</em> trap if you don't want to. My preference is to use some degree of telegraphing for every trap. I personally don't think it's fair to my players to spring traps on them that they couldn't have seen coming. Again, it doesn't have to be obvious, but in my opinion if it wasn't possible to realize it was coming, it wasn't a fair challenge.</p><p></p><p></p><p>*shrug* I don't agree.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I guess, but that doesn't sound like a very fun dungeon. And it's pretty trivial to come up with a reason the Lich might have decided to leave clues. Maybe he does have living minions. Or maybe he has a sense of sportsmanship and wants to make sure the adventurers have a chance. Maybe he (wisely, in my opinion) assumes his gauntlet of death won't be able to lure in very many adventurers if they don't think they'll be able to find their way through it. This comes back to what I said about the chandelier. Sure, if the reason the chandelier is unstable is because the wood that holds it up has rotten in a place that the characters can't see... Yeah, it doesn't make sense to tell them the chandelier might break. But, as DM it is your decision to set the scenario up that way. If, like me, you think it's important that players have information, you can set it up in such a way that it is reasonable for the character to know the chandelier might break. </p><p></p><p></p><p>...That's a mystery, not a trap. That's is a <em>very</em> different situation than what we've been discussing. I also don't generally run mystery adventures because they're not my favorite, and frankly, I'm not very good at writing them.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No. Stumbling into consequences you didn't see coming is a mistake. Taking a risky action when you know the risk and potential consequences is not a mistake, it's a calculated risk. A gamble. If a player declares an action that has an uncertain outcome and potential consequences, I will tell them the odds and potential consequences (within the bounds of what it is reasonable for the character to know, of course). If the player was already expecting the consequences and expected the difficulty to be in the same ballpark that I gave, no harm done. If the player expected lesser consequences or a much lower risk of failure, then we've successfully avoided a mistake. Now that player can adjust their expectations and proceed accordingly. Maybe they still think the gamble is worth it and proceed, in which case, great. Maybe they think twice and decide the risk is too great, in which case, also great. As long as nobody is accidentally taking risks that are far greater than they anticipated or have far worse consequences than they thought (again, within the bounds of what it is reasonable for the character to know).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Coulda fooled me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 7598784, member: 6779196"] *shrug* sorry? Like I said, I can't remember a specific example off the top of my head. You'll fall into the pit. Whatever. Most players who have been playing in one of my games for more than a few sessions are going to have a pretty good idea of what actions are going to take 10 minutes. I've talked about this before in the thread, but 10 minutes (the amount of time it takes to cast a spell as a ritual) is my go-to length of time for actions where time spent is the only cost. Picking a lock, thoroughly searching the evil vizier's desk, whatever. It's technically an abstract amount of time spent, and may be slightly more or less than 10 minutes, but either way, 6 such abstract time intervals spent add up to one hour (the amount of time it takes to take a short rest), which is also technically somewhat abstract, but it's the interval at which I roll for random encounters. And when I say "random encounters," I mean encounters that occur randomly, not necessarily encounters that are themselves randomly generated. The random element is [I]when[/I] they happen, not [I]what[/I] happens when they are rolled. I too generally have a set of planned encounters that are appropriate to the dungeon or the adventure, and generally serve the story at hand. Often they come in a specific order. For instance, I'm currently running my players through the dungeons in Tales from the Yawning Portal. When we get to White Plume Mountain, I plan for the party to not be the only group of adventurers following the clues to find Whelm, Wave, and Blackrazor. We're still on Forge of Fury, so I don't have the "random" encounters for White Plume Mountain planned out yet, but my intent for when we get there is to have a set of encounters with other adventurers seeking the weapons that occur in a specific progression. But progress will be made by way of dice rolls that occur roughly once each hour, or rather, once every 6 times the players take an action where time spent is the cost. Additionally, actions that make a lot of noise or otherwise attract attention to the party can trigger extra rolls for these encounters, though generally with a lower chance of resulting in an encounter. You don't have to use it for [I]any[/I] trap if you don't want to. My preference is to use some degree of telegraphing for every trap. I personally don't think it's fair to my players to spring traps on them that they couldn't have seen coming. Again, it doesn't have to be obvious, but in my opinion if it wasn't possible to realize it was coming, it wasn't a fair challenge. *shrug* I don't agree. I guess, but that doesn't sound like a very fun dungeon. And it's pretty trivial to come up with a reason the Lich might have decided to leave clues. Maybe he does have living minions. Or maybe he has a sense of sportsmanship and wants to make sure the adventurers have a chance. Maybe he (wisely, in my opinion) assumes his gauntlet of death won't be able to lure in very many adventurers if they don't think they'll be able to find their way through it. This comes back to what I said about the chandelier. Sure, if the reason the chandelier is unstable is because the wood that holds it up has rotten in a place that the characters can't see... Yeah, it doesn't make sense to tell them the chandelier might break. But, as DM it is your decision to set the scenario up that way. If, like me, you think it's important that players have information, you can set it up in such a way that it is reasonable for the character to know the chandelier might break. ...That's a mystery, not a trap. That's is a [I]very[/I] different situation than what we've been discussing. I also don't generally run mystery adventures because they're not my favorite, and frankly, I'm not very good at writing them. No. Stumbling into consequences you didn't see coming is a mistake. Taking a risky action when you know the risk and potential consequences is not a mistake, it's a calculated risk. A gamble. If a player declares an action that has an uncertain outcome and potential consequences, I will tell them the odds and potential consequences (within the bounds of what it is reasonable for the character to know, of course). If the player was already expecting the consequences and expected the difficulty to be in the same ballpark that I gave, no harm done. If the player expected lesser consequences or a much lower risk of failure, then we've successfully avoided a mistake. Now that player can adjust their expectations and proceed accordingly. Maybe they still think the gamble is worth it and proceed, in which case, great. Maybe they think twice and decide the risk is too great, in which case, also great. As long as nobody is accidentally taking risks that are far greater than they anticipated or have far worse consequences than they thought (again, within the bounds of what it is reasonable for the character to know). Coulda fooled me. [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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