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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 7599497" data-attributes="member: 6779196"><p>See, now you’re talking about combat encounter difficulty, which is a different thing than trap/hazzard telegraphing.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a false dichotomy. There is a whole spectrum of villain motivations between ineffable mastermind who foresees all possible ways the heroes could notice his traps and takes measures to cover them up, and the riddler. There are any number of reasons that the details that telegraph the presence of traps might remain intact. You have chosen to set this scenario up in such a way as to excuse your conscious choice to make the traps in your dungeon impossible to detect. That’s your prerogative if you think that will lead to an enjoyable play experience for you and your players, but personally I wouldn’t want to play that game.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Except, we haven’t been discussing realism vs stylization or challenge vs. ease. We’ve been discussing fair challenge vs. unfair challenge. It is entirely possible to design a campaign that is “realistic” (insofar as D&D can be realistic), challenging, and fair. Again, I point to Dark Souls as the classic example of difficult but fair game design. That is in fact exactly what I aim to capture in my games. You’re the one who said that a fair challenge isn’t always desirable. I disagree with that. And that’s fine, you don’t need my permission to run your game any way you want.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, sorry, I don’t think your elf’s identity needs telegraphing. If you thought I would think it did, now you have an example why I don’t think you actually understand my style.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I literally do not care what you do. You presented my style as if I was telling players things their characters couldn’t possibly know, which I disputed. You gave an example of a consequence the character couldn’t possibly know (the chandelier with the rotten beams thing). I said that I wouldn’t have set it up that way, because I’m not interested in hiding vital decision-making information from my players like that. I’m not “taking you to task” for anything because I literally don’t care what you do, I am responding to misunderstandings and misrepresentations of the way I run the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Failing to dodge at the right time is a failed Dexterity saving throw, that’s not the same thing as what we’ve been talking about, which is letting the players know the potential consequences of their action (when said action has a chance to succeed, chance to fail, and consequence for failure) before making them commit to it. Rolling off the edge is something that can happen due to the game’s real-time physics, and pushing the button too many times and using up more of a consumable than you meant to likewise. These aren’t issues that arise in a pen and paper RPG, they are unique to video games.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If we’re defining “mistake” as “blunder into a consequence of your own action that you were not aware of the possibility of,” then sure.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah. Into thinking you were in fact attacking my choice of style. I assume you’re familiar with the idiom, right?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I’m sorry, but this reads as gibberish to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Whatever, I don’t care to belabor this point.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 7599497, member: 6779196"] See, now you’re talking about combat encounter difficulty, which is a different thing than trap/hazzard telegraphing. This is a false dichotomy. There is a whole spectrum of villain motivations between ineffable mastermind who foresees all possible ways the heroes could notice his traps and takes measures to cover them up, and the riddler. There are any number of reasons that the details that telegraph the presence of traps might remain intact. You have chosen to set this scenario up in such a way as to excuse your conscious choice to make the traps in your dungeon impossible to detect. That’s your prerogative if you think that will lead to an enjoyable play experience for you and your players, but personally I wouldn’t want to play that game. Except, we haven’t been discussing realism vs stylization or challenge vs. ease. We’ve been discussing fair challenge vs. unfair challenge. It is entirely possible to design a campaign that is “realistic” (insofar as D&D can be realistic), challenging, and fair. Again, I point to Dark Souls as the classic example of difficult but fair game design. That is in fact exactly what I aim to capture in my games. You’re the one who said that a fair challenge isn’t always desirable. I disagree with that. And that’s fine, you don’t need my permission to run your game any way you want. Well, sorry, I don’t think your elf’s identity needs telegraphing. If you thought I would think it did, now you have an example why I don’t think you actually understand my style. I literally do not care what you do. You presented my style as if I was telling players things their characters couldn’t possibly know, which I disputed. You gave an example of a consequence the character couldn’t possibly know (the chandelier with the rotten beams thing). I said that I wouldn’t have set it up that way, because I’m not interested in hiding vital decision-making information from my players like that. I’m not “taking you to task” for anything because I literally don’t care what you do, I am responding to misunderstandings and misrepresentations of the way I run the game. Failing to dodge at the right time is a failed Dexterity saving throw, that’s not the same thing as what we’ve been talking about, which is letting the players know the potential consequences of their action (when said action has a chance to succeed, chance to fail, and consequence for failure) before making them commit to it. Rolling off the edge is something that can happen due to the game’s real-time physics, and pushing the button too many times and using up more of a consumable than you meant to likewise. These aren’t issues that arise in a pen and paper RPG, they are unique to video games. If we’re defining “mistake” as “blunder into a consequence of your own action that you were not aware of the possibility of,” then sure. Yeah. Into thinking you were in fact attacking my choice of style. I assume you’re familiar with the idiom, right? I’m sorry, but this reads as gibberish to me. Whatever, I don’t care to belabor this point. [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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