Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7600155" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>This is all a day late thanks to IRL stuff</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why is it not engaging?</p><p></p><p>I'm not looking to rebuild the Tomb of Horrors, but sometimes my players will have more fun if I'm not holding back. Would they ask me to not hold back? I doubt it, they want to succeed, but they know I sometimes just unleash, and those can be some of the best fights and challenges they overcome. And sometimes that means catching them off guard, not telegraphing something.</p><p></p><p>I'm not <u>blaming </u> the fiction, of course I am creating it. But, why is that fact being used to tell me I'm doing it wrong? That I should change the fiction to fit with someone else's style, because their style is better, because the only reason I'm saying something is impossible is because I determined it was impossible, and that is a bad thing?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, but when talking about setting up a boss plus lair, they tie into each other. Especially when you insist that I must be fair. To be completely fair, I can't send them against overpowered foes in heavily fortified bases. That isn't fair.</p><p></p><p>It is also great in every other use of media, because it is compelling.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You seem to think I'm working in reverse.</p><p></p><p>I imagined the villain, then looked at how they would obfuscate their traps, because it is what they would do. I didn't decide the traps were undetectable then create my villain.</p><p></p><p>Of course there is a spectrum, but you don't seem to think there is. To you, all traps must be telegraphed, the villain cannot have hidden a trap so well that it is not telegraphed, because that is me working against my players. Therefore, there is no spectrum that includes "not telegraphed" because every trap must be telegraphed, period, no matter what else is true.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You realize, just as an aside, one of the major points of Dark Souls is that you have infinite lives right?</p><p></p><p>Also, you want to talk about “fair” vs “unfair” but you haven’t really explained anything beyond “the player not knowing all the information if unfair”. With that my only recourse is to assume that the only fair challenge is the transparent one, where the player knows all the pertinent information possible to know, which will be all of it, since you’ll design it so everything is available. </p><p></p><p>That is why I’m saying, that not every challenge that is engaging and fun is “fair” because the characters aren’t on a level playing field with their opponents. Their opponents hold the edge. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay then, what doesn’t get telegraphed? What do you not tell your players when they are about to roll the dice. Because, you keep using vague terms, like “the consequences” and so I am left having to assume you what you mean. </p><p></p><p>Do you only telegraph clues in the exploration pillar, and never in the social? Do combat encounters get telegraphed? What am I getting wrong? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, then give a counter-example.</p><p></p><p>My example was bad because the I hid too much vital information and it was only hidden because I decided it was. </p><p></p><p>That would be far more productive than just constantly telling me “But it is only impossible to know because you decided it was impossible to know” which reads as a critic of what I am doing, not a defense of what you are theoretically doing instead. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Facepalm </p><p></p><p>Yes, those are mistakes unique to video games. Board games and RPGs have their own mistakes that can be made. Like going forward with an action whose consequences were worse than you thought they would be. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7600155, member: 6801228"] This is all a day late thanks to IRL stuff Why is it not engaging? I'm not looking to rebuild the Tomb of Horrors, but sometimes my players will have more fun if I'm not holding back. Would they ask me to not hold back? I doubt it, they want to succeed, but they know I sometimes just unleash, and those can be some of the best fights and challenges they overcome. And sometimes that means catching them off guard, not telegraphing something. I'm not [U]blaming [/U] the fiction, of course I am creating it. But, why is that fact being used to tell me I'm doing it wrong? That I should change the fiction to fit with someone else's style, because their style is better, because the only reason I'm saying something is impossible is because I determined it was impossible, and that is a bad thing? Sure, but when talking about setting up a boss plus lair, they tie into each other. Especially when you insist that I must be fair. To be completely fair, I can't send them against overpowered foes in heavily fortified bases. That isn't fair. It is also great in every other use of media, because it is compelling. You seem to think I'm working in reverse. I imagined the villain, then looked at how they would obfuscate their traps, because it is what they would do. I didn't decide the traps were undetectable then create my villain. Of course there is a spectrum, but you don't seem to think there is. To you, all traps must be telegraphed, the villain cannot have hidden a trap so well that it is not telegraphed, because that is me working against my players. Therefore, there is no spectrum that includes "not telegraphed" because every trap must be telegraphed, period, no matter what else is true. You realize, just as an aside, one of the major points of Dark Souls is that you have infinite lives right? Also, you want to talk about “fair” vs “unfair” but you haven’t really explained anything beyond “the player not knowing all the information if unfair”. With that my only recourse is to assume that the only fair challenge is the transparent one, where the player knows all the pertinent information possible to know, which will be all of it, since you’ll design it so everything is available. That is why I’m saying, that not every challenge that is engaging and fun is “fair” because the characters aren’t on a level playing field with their opponents. Their opponents hold the edge. Okay then, what doesn’t get telegraphed? What do you not tell your players when they are about to roll the dice. Because, you keep using vague terms, like “the consequences” and so I am left having to assume you what you mean. Do you only telegraph clues in the exploration pillar, and never in the social? Do combat encounters get telegraphed? What am I getting wrong? Okay, then give a counter-example. My example was bad because the I hid too much vital information and it was only hidden because I decided it was. That would be far more productive than just constantly telling me “But it is only impossible to know because you decided it was impossible to know” which reads as a critic of what I am doing, not a defense of what you are theoretically doing instead. Facepalm Yes, those are mistakes unique to video games. Board games and RPGs have their own mistakes that can be made. Like going forward with an action whose consequences were worse than you thought they would be. Yes [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
Top