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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6020770" data-attributes="member: 87792">This is not an accurate reflection of anything except the way 4e feats bloated every bit as much as 3.5 feats.&nbsp; (Comfortably in excess of 1200 in both systems - which is far, far too many).&nbsp; The situation with 3.5 feats is significantly worse for two reasons.&nbsp; The first is that you can retrain feats in 4e if they don't work out (or if you've taken e.g. 4e's version of toughness at level 1 but think it's no longer worth it at level 4).&nbsp; The second is prerequisites. Very few feats in 4e either have prerequisites that are other feats (Two Weapon Defence springs to mind) or are prerequisites (Multiclass feats are about it).&nbsp; So the only thing you have to look at is what looks cool now rather than &quot;I need three metamagic or item creation feats and a skill focus feat in knowledge to qualify for the Loremaster prestige class&quot; or &quot;In order to get Whirlwind Attack I need Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Combat Expertise&quot;.&nbsp; So 4e has all the bloat of 3.5 feats but it lacks the sting of needing to plan your feats half a dozen levels in advance or being stuck with bad choices.&nbsp;4e powers?&nbsp; At each new level you might, if you're a member of one of the two bloated classes (fighter and wizard), have a choice of twelve attack powers.&nbsp; And odds are that a third of them don't fit your character at all - for instance two weapon fighting options for a sword and board fighter or pyromancy for an enchanter.&nbsp; Utility powers are slightly worse. But again say a dozen powers on the table.&nbsp; A choice of one out of a dozen two levels in three isn't that bad.&nbsp; Hell, it's an easier choice than 3.X skills on levelling up.&nbsp;Paragon paths?&nbsp; You again have a choice of about a dozen even in an all-the-options 4e.&nbsp; Making a big choice every ten levels (literally) and having a dozen options on the table isn't too bad.&nbsp; They are almost all good. And you're only going to have to pick a Paragon Path once.&nbsp; After you've been playing your character for ten levels.&nbsp;Which means except for the feats (and I in no way defend the presence of more than 1000 feats in the system) although the system contains hordes of options, it only presents you with a manageable number of choices at a time.&nbsp; And all these choices are non-binding except your Paragon Path.&nbsp; As for breaking down, it's only happened a few times with 4e - and the designers have been arguably overzealous with the errata to prevent that happening. So I strongly disagree with your claim here.&nbsp; It's not total options in the entire system that matter.&nbsp; It's options where the rubber meets the road.&nbsp; And other than feats, 4e keeps these down.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6020770, member: 87792"] This is not an accurate reflection of anything except the way 4e feats bloated every bit as much as 3.5 feats. (Comfortably in excess of 1200 in both systems - which is far, far too many). The situation with 3.5 feats is significantly worse for two reasons. The first is that you can retrain feats in 4e if they don't work out (or if you've taken e.g. 4e's version of toughness at level 1 but think it's no longer worth it at level 4). The second is prerequisites. Very few feats in 4e either have prerequisites that are other feats (Two Weapon Defence springs to mind) or are prerequisites (Multiclass feats are about it). So the only thing you have to look at is what looks cool [I]now[/I] rather than "I need three metamagic or item creation feats and a skill focus feat in knowledge to qualify for the Loremaster prestige class" or "In order to get Whirlwind Attack I need Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Combat Expertise". So 4e has all the bloat of 3.5 feats but it lacks the sting of needing to plan your feats half a dozen levels in advance or being stuck with bad choices. 4e powers? At each new level you might, if you're a member of one of the two bloated classes (fighter and wizard), have a choice of twelve attack powers. And odds are that a third of them don't fit your character at all - for instance two weapon fighting options for a sword and board fighter or pyromancy for an enchanter. Utility powers are slightly worse. But again say a dozen powers on the table. A choice of one out of a dozen two levels in three isn't that bad. Hell, it's an easier choice than 3.X [I]skills[/I] on levelling up. Paragon paths? You again have a choice of about a dozen even in an all-the-options 4e. Making a big choice every ten levels (literally) and having a dozen options on the table isn't too bad. They are almost all good. And you're only going to have to pick a Paragon Path [I]once[/I]. After you've been playing your character for ten levels. Which means except for the feats (and I in no way defend the presence of more than 1000 feats in the system) although the system contains hordes of options, it only presents you with a manageable number of choices at a time. And all these choices are non-binding except your Paragon Path. As for breaking down, it's only happened a few times with 4e - and the designers have been arguably overzealous with the errata to prevent that happening. So I strongly disagree with your claim here. It's not total options in the entire system that matter. It's options where the rubber meets the road. And other than feats, 4e keeps these down. [/QUOTE]

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