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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6027452" data-attributes="member: 87792">Not yet it hasn't.&nbsp; That depends when 5e comes out.&nbsp; The 3.5 PHB was released in July 2003, the 4e PHB was released in May 2008.&nbsp; Which means that 4e will outlast 3.5 as of April 2013.&nbsp; (For that matter&nbsp; 3.5 only lasted as long as it did because Orcus had big enough issues they pulled the whole thing and rushed what we got as 4e out of the door).&nbsp; And I specifically said 3.0.And Essentials isn't 4e.&nbsp; It's closer to Magic of Incarnum/Book of 9 swords.&nbsp; You play Essentials and classic classes at the same table.&nbsp;Which as has been pointed out is the fault of the OGL - Ryan Dancey's poison pill.&nbsp; As for losing a lot of the playerbase, it also drew a lot in.&nbsp; 4e was intentionally targetted with language that would appeal to MMO players rather than keeping the old tabletop wargame vocabulary.Except as a scene framing mechanic that actually provides a meta-way of stringing ordinary skill checks together and providing a systematic reward for non-combat task resolution you mean.&nbsp; If you are turning the activity into just a string of dice rolls and not saying what those dice rolls mean then you are playing it badly and against the guidance in the PHB and DMG.&nbsp; I'll grant the guidance isn't great - but it is there.&nbsp; And common sense alone should say that you actually tie the rolls to the fiction and narrate them.&nbsp; So please stop misrepresenting skill challenges.&nbsp; (That said most of the published ones in the early adventures were crap - I have no idea why after producing a superb game, WotC followed it up with third rate adventures). As for the out of combat skills, the skills removed were Use Magic Device, Use Rope, Profession, Craft, Perform - the rest were all folded into either skills or in two cases feats.&nbsp; The first two shouldn't have existed at all and the last three are generally flavour, which is why in 4e you get backgrounds to say what's special about you and what you did before becoming an adventurer.&nbsp; And with 31 skills and five further skill families (Knowlege, Perform, Craft, Profession, Speak Language) even a rogue's 8+Int skill points/level wouldn't go very far.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6027452, member: 87792"] Not yet it hasn't. That depends when 5e comes out. The 3.5 PHB was released in July 2003, the 4e PHB was released in May 2008. Which means that 4e will outlast 3.5 as of April 2013. (For that matter 3.5 only lasted as long as it did because Orcus had big enough issues they pulled the whole thing and rushed what we got as 4e out of the door). And I specifically said [I]3.0[/I]. And Essentials isn't 4e. It's closer to Magic of Incarnum/Book of 9 swords. You play Essentials and classic classes at the same table. Which as has been pointed out is the fault of the OGL - Ryan Dancey's poison pill. As for losing a lot of the playerbase, it also drew a lot in. 4e was intentionally targetted with language that would appeal to MMO players rather than keeping the old tabletop wargame vocabulary. Except as a scene framing mechanic that actually provides a meta-way of stringing ordinary skill checks together and providing a systematic reward for non-combat task resolution you mean. If you are turning the activity into just a string of dice rolls and not saying what those dice rolls mean then you are playing it badly and against the guidance in the PHB and DMG. I'll grant the guidance isn't great - but it is there. And common sense alone should say that you actually tie the rolls to the fiction and narrate them. So please stop misrepresenting skill challenges. (That said most of the published ones in the early adventures were crap - I have no idea why after producing a superb game, WotC followed it up with third rate adventures). As for the out of combat skills, the skills removed were Use Magic Device, Use Rope, Profession, Craft, Perform - the rest were all folded into either skills or in two cases feats. The first two shouldn't have existed at all and the last three are generally flavour, which is why in 4e you get backgrounds to say what's special about you and what you did before becoming an adventurer. And with 31 skills and five further skill families (Knowlege, Perform, Craft, Profession, Speak Language) even a rogue's 8+Int skill points/level wouldn't go very far. [/QUOTE]

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