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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cadence" data-source="post: 6030799" data-attributes="member: 6701124">Thanks, that was very helpful to see where you're coming from:I think I need help with the vocabulary and differentiating between defining characteristic, niche, trope, and stereotype.    <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The ranger with tracking - in 1e we picture the character having it, they have mechanical support for it, and they're the only ones</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Being sneaky - we picture the 1e thief having it and they have mechanical support for it basically only at the higher levels</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Being sneaky in the woods - the 1e flavor text makes it sound like the ranger should be, but there is no mechanical support for it and the thief is the one you'd actually want</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Being smart - we picture the mage being the smartest, and there is flavor text to support, but no mechanics in 1e, and in 3e the mechanics actually support other classes being more knowledgable.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Doing miscellaneous magic - in 1e to 3e the flavor text and mechanics support the magic user/wizard being able to flexibly take spells for particular circumstances</li> </ul>The mage rocking out the knowledge checks doesn't seem to be at the same level as the thief being the best at opening doors and sneaking around or the mage being the one with a huge variety of interesting spells.It seems the mage having spells like knock or the cleric having find traps, or in 4e all characters having access to miscellaneous magic seem much more niche busting than a sage type.   (Two wrongs don't make a right, so that isn't actually a defense of the sage being more scholarly).I really like the idea of how it impacts setting up the DCs, but I think that leads to a whole other area.   If a pre-packaged dungeon is designed so that each character class has a chance to especially demonstrate its own particular worth, then it seems like it would need high DC challenges that require fighting skill, tracking, fighting undead, solving puzzles, picking locks/finding secret doors, climbing walls, etc...    A dungeon that has that would be nearly impossible for a party that didn't have at least one of each class (in stereotypical build) to complete... and could be nigh impossible to escape from if the only representative of that class had died in the middle.    Does this mean that all of the challenges that require a particular high skill should be solvable by using several skills (or at least have a list of choices for the DM to pick from as to the only way)?   Should every party need a mage who buffed his scholarly aspects (does that mean every mage should have to do that)?</blockquote>

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