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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6031848" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Good post innerdude.&nbsp; I wanted to comment on this bit here.&nbsp; Where I come from on this is that the Creative Agenda which underwrites the table's primary pursuit is the key factor that interposes itself between a &quot;Step on Up&quot; table and a &quot;Story Now&quot; table in 4e (which will inevitably be an incoherent/hybrid one as outlined below).&nbsp; - If you have a table whose predicate for ensuing gameplay is to explore the thematic infrastructure/questions embedded in their chosen archetypes (the grizzled naval veteran who swore to go down with the ship but in &quot;the moment of truth&quot; took the lifeboat while his mates went down to Davey Jones Locker...and now has to live with those demons and attempt redemption) and this pierces from the Social Contract through the Exploration through the Techniques to the Ephemera then you're playing Narrative.&nbsp; Techniques:&nbsp; (i) In 4e if milestones/APs are rewarded for actions/conflicts faced and resolved relative to those themes captured and acted upon you are playing Narrative.&nbsp; (ii) If you build your character around that concept (sacrifice, protection, instilling courage when cowardice is the easier option) and then deploy them under those auspices rather than optimization of build type for combat or non-combat resolution then you are playing Narrative.&nbsp; (iii) If some of your framed Skill Challenges are informed by genre tropes which specifically address/challenge those themes and the emergent play (success or failing forward) is relevant to those themes/archetypes then you're playing Narrative.&nbsp; (iv) If your minor quest XP is specifically derived by the fulfillment of, and&nbsp; fidelity to, these concepts when the respective, thematic in-game&nbsp; challenges manifest then you're playing Narrative.&nbsp; - Conversely &quot;Step on Up&quot; agenda will take all of the above and insert Gamism interests - the tactical/strategic (rather than thematic) optimization of character builds toward the end of defeating challenges...and the rewarding of defeating challenges based upon that optimization and its culmination toward victory.&nbsp; You are not building theme/archetype here.&nbsp; You are building a &quot;victory machine&quot; and in D&amp;D you are building a &quot;synergistic victory unit.&quot;&nbsp; That will pierce the techniques of (i) milestone/AP rewards, (ii) character builds, (iii) framed Skill Challenges, and (iv) minor quest XP rewards.&nbsp; Addressing (iii) specifically;&nbsp; this is why I think many folks have trouble understanding the narrative capabilities of Skill Challenges...they're approaching them from a table with an implicit &quot;Step on Up&quot; agenda and they don't realize it.&nbsp; If they created an explicit &quot;Story Now&quot; agenda, understood it and practiced their technique, things would change dramatically (pardon the pun) for them.Anyway, that is my take.&nbsp; No, 4e D&amp;D is never, ever going to be a 100% pure Narrativist system (there are Gamist elements - success in combat or TPK - and &quot;Step on Up&quot; agenda implacably embedded in the system).&nbsp; There will be some incoherency.&nbsp; However, if those Gamist elements are not the overiding, animating factors that underwrite your Exploration and you use the Tools/Techniques (outlined above) within it to advocate a table-playstyle dynamic (Ephemera) of a strong, overtly expressed &quot;Story Now&quot; agenda...then Narrativist play can manifest quite nicely.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6031848, member: 6696971"] Good post innerdude. I wanted to comment on this bit here. Where I come from on this is that the Creative Agenda which underwrites the table's primary pursuit is the key factor that interposes itself between a "Step on Up" table and a "Story Now" table in 4e (which will inevitably be an incoherent/hybrid one as outlined below). - If you have a table whose predicate for ensuing gameplay is to explore the thematic infrastructure/questions embedded in their chosen archetypes (the grizzled naval veteran who swore to go down with the ship but in "the moment of truth" took the lifeboat while his mates went down to Davey Jones Locker...and now has to live with those demons and attempt redemption) and this pierces from the Social Contract through the Exploration through the Techniques to the Ephemera then you're playing Narrative. Techniques: (i) In 4e if milestones/APs are rewarded for actions/conflicts faced and resolved relative to those themes captured and acted upon you are playing Narrative. (ii) If you build your character around that concept (sacrifice, protection, instilling courage when cowardice is the easier option) and then deploy them under those auspices rather than optimization of build type for combat or non-combat resolution then you are playing Narrative. (iii) If some of your framed Skill Challenges are informed by genre tropes which specifically address/challenge those themes and the emergent play (success or failing forward) is relevant to those themes/archetypes then you're playing Narrative. (iv) If your minor quest XP is specifically derived by the fulfillment of, and fidelity to, these concepts when the respective, thematic in-game challenges manifest then you're playing Narrative. - Conversely "Step on Up" agenda will take all of the above and insert Gamism interests - the tactical/strategic (rather than thematic) optimization of character builds toward the end of defeating challenges...and the rewarding of defeating challenges based upon that optimization and its culmination toward victory. You are not building theme/archetype here. You are building a "victory machine" and in D&D you are building a "synergistic victory unit." That will pierce the techniques of (i) milestone/AP rewards, (ii) character builds, (iii) framed Skill Challenges, and (iv) minor quest XP rewards. Addressing (iii) specifically; this is why I think many folks have trouble understanding the narrative capabilities of Skill Challenges...they're approaching them from a table with an implicit "Step on Up" agenda and they don't realize it. If they created an explicit "Story Now" agenda, understood it and practiced their technique, things would change dramatically (pardon the pun) for them. Anyway, that is my take. No, 4e D&D is never, ever going to be a 100% pure Narrativist system (there are Gamist elements - success in combat or TPK - and "Step on Up" agenda implacably embedded in the system). There will be some incoherency. However, if those Gamist elements are not the overiding, animating factors that underwrite your Exploration and you use the Tools/Techniques (outlined above) within it to advocate a table-playstyle dynamic (Ephemera) of a strong, overtly expressed "Story Now" agenda...then Narrativist play can manifest quite nicely. [/QUOTE]

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