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<blockquote data-quote="innerdude" data-source="post: 6032019" data-attributes="member: 85870">I can't xp you from my android tablet for some reason, but that's an excellent explanation of narrative &quot;drift.&quot; Everything you said makes sense, and the exploration of theme as you described is much more akin to the types of experiences I'm looking for when I RPG.I think there's three primary reasons I never could connect with 4e in that way. First, the skill challenge mechanics as presented in the original &quot;Core 3&quot; are abysmal. They're terribly presented, devoid of flavor, and have zero indication that they're meant to be used in such narrativist fashion. I suspect the vast majority of 4e players and GMs who gave up on the system after giving it a shot never reached that kind of epiphany of what skill challenges were capable of. Second, and I know we've hashed this out ad nauseum, if you're coming from a &quot;sim&quot; agenda, 4e throws up roadblocks all over the place. I prefer narrativism to sim for roleplaying, but not at the expense of my internal verisimilitude meter. Since as a role player I've often only had the option of playing D&amp;D (and only D&amp;D), I've had to fight for a more narrativist agenda in my groups. When you're dealing with a group that isn't interested in narrativism per se, the easiest way to get some narrativist &quot;drift&quot; is through sim---create &quot;realistic&quot; social dynamics where narrativist explorations are at least feasible. 4e is certainly capable of this, but the rules-as-written aren't presented in such a way to actively support it. 4e's intense focus on tactical combat is just one more barrier to narrativist goals. As a narrativist, I often find myself wishing I could skip combats entirely when playing D&amp;D. &quot;Okay Scott, I get it, you totally kicked those thugs' arses. Can we move on to the more interesting part about how we're going to help the duke protect his citizens from falling prey to the street gangs?&quot;Third, and this has nothing to do with 4e mechanically, good narrativist play requires a high level of maturity and commitment from the group for it not to devolve into &quot;pass the conch,&quot; or GM railroading. And frankly, no version of D&amp;D has presented itself mechanically or stylistically as a game where narrativist agendas could grow and thrive outside of extreme adherence to social contract.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="innerdude, post: 6032019, member: 85870"] I can't xp you from my android tablet for some reason, but that's an excellent explanation of narrative "drift." Everything you said makes sense, and the exploration of theme as you described is much more akin to the types of experiences I'm looking for when I RPG. I think there's three primary reasons I never could connect with 4e in that way. First, the skill challenge mechanics as presented in the original "Core 3" are abysmal. They're terribly presented, devoid of flavor, and have zero indication that they're meant to be used in such narrativist fashion. I suspect the vast majority of 4e players and GMs who gave up on the system after giving it a shot never reached that kind of epiphany of what skill challenges were capable of. Second, and I know we've hashed this out ad nauseum, if you're coming from a "sim" agenda, 4e throws up roadblocks all over the place. I prefer narrativism to sim for roleplaying, but not at the expense of my internal verisimilitude meter. Since as a role player I've often only had the option of playing D&D (and only D&D), I've had to fight for a more narrativist agenda in my groups. When you're dealing with a group that isn't interested in narrativism per se, the easiest way to get some narrativist "drift" is through sim---create "realistic" social dynamics where narrativist explorations are at least feasible. 4e is certainly capable of this, but the rules-as-written aren't presented in such a way to actively support it. 4e's intense focus on tactical combat is just one more barrier to narrativist goals. As a narrativist, I often find myself wishing I could skip combats entirely when playing D&D. "Okay Scott, I get it, you totally kicked those thugs' arses. Can we move on to the more interesting part about how we're going to help the duke protect his citizens from falling prey to the street gangs?" Third, and this has nothing to do with 4e mechanically, good narrativist play requires a high level of maturity and commitment from the group for it not to devolve into "pass the conch," or GM railroading. And frankly, no version of D&D has presented itself mechanically or stylistically as a game where narrativist agendas could grow and thrive outside of extreme adherence to social contract. [/QUOTE]

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