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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Anubis" data-source="post: 359566" data-attributes="member: 2358">I have a Fireball handy for trolls like you. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes    :rolleyes:"  data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" /> I have played with the Harm spell MANY MANY MANY times, and I have used it AS-IS MANY MANY MANY times, and I KNOW for a FACT that it's BROKEN!  That said, drop your holier-than-thou "experience it yourself" attitude, 'cause I've been there!You wanna see how broken Harm is?  How about I tell you what happened in a game I was a player in.We went down into the Dragon's Den underneath a huge metropolis, and this mammoth cavern had dragons of all types.  Our goal was to clean out all of the evil dragons from the cave.  The number was something around 20 or 30, if memory serves me correctly.  We had everything from Great Wyrm Red Dragons to Chaotic Evil Great Wyrm Gold Dragons to Great Wyrm Shadow Dragons.The party was comprised of, starting out, four Level 15 characters.  One was my Level 14 Wizard Xun Huo, the second was my Level 14 Cleric Gregory Belmont, the third was Level 14 Sorcerer Leiza Dunvegan, and the fourth was Level 14 Figher/Weapon Master Daggen Whisperwind.  All three spellcasters had Spell Penetration at this point.The top level of this cave had, I believe, seven Old dragons, five of them Chromatic, two of them Metallic, six of them Evil.  The CR range was 14-19, the SR range was 22-26.  Xun Huo and Leiza both had Disintegrate and other naty spells, and Gregory memorized nothing but Harm for his 6th-level spell slots.  Our tactics were simple: Leiza fired first with Disintegrate, and if that failed, Gregory would use Harm and Daggen would whack the thing, and if that failed, Xun Huo would try Disintegrate.  In the end, we EASILY won, using barely 30% of our resources, killed six of the seven dragons.  We left the Good one alive, of course.1: Disintegrate2: Harm and Hack3: Harm and Hack4: Harm and Hack5: Disintegrate6: Harm and HackWhy is it that the Cleric is not only offensively keeping up with the Wizards using the SAME LEVEL OF SPELLS, but actually doing more?  After this level, all four characters were Level 15, and the spellcasters all gained Greater Spell Penetration.  Let's move on.First we rested, then we continued.  The second level had like eight Very Old and Ancient dragons, four of them Chromatic, three of them Metallic, one of them from Faerun, six of them Evil.  The CR range was 18-23, the SR range was 25-30.  We used the same tactics, and got the same results.  Interesting, eh?1: Disintegrate2: Harm and Hack3: Disintegrate4: Harm and Hack5: Harm and Hack6: Harm and HackCleric is still keeping up, actually doing better because Disintegrate gets a save.  Now the party was Level 18.We rested and continued.  The third level had ten Wyrm and Great Wyrm dragons, one Chromatic, three Metallic, six from Faerun, nine of them Evil.  The CR range was 21-26, the SR range was 28-34.  We rolled over all of them with ease.1: Disintegrate2: Harm and Hack3: Harm and Hack4: Harm and Hack5: Harm and Hack6: Disintegrate7: Harm and Hack8: Disintegrate9: Harm and HackCleric is now doing much better than Wizard, because Disintegrate has a save and Harm does not, and their both, basically, instant death in ALL cases!This is proof, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Harm needs a save.  Clerics are not supposed to be primarily offensive, but with Harm, they are.  We took out almost 30 dragons that should have been able to crush us all thanks to Harm!  Do you understand now?  Try actually playing with it, and you'll experience the same thing.</blockquote>

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