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<blockquote data-quote="Tom Cashel" data-source="post: 360855" data-attributes="member: 321">Oh, I get it, Chumpy. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> You have one of those campaigns where everyone's &quot;epic&quot; level and they fight gods and stuff.&nbsp; How many Thors have your players killed?&nbsp; Do they all have Mjolnirs now?Okay, okay, just kidding.&nbsp; In all seriousness, we don't use D&amp;Dg (at least not the stats) and I don't have any interest in the ELH.&nbsp; But again, I'll wager that's a spurious argument since Epic characters probably have ways to nullify little things like 6th level spells.&nbsp; But I don't know, so I'm not making any certain claims.What I do know is that Harm works the same way it always has, and I've never had a problem with it.&nbsp; I haven't yet seen an argument here that exists outside a vacuum...i.e. taking into account Harm and one other factor, maybe two factors.&nbsp; If someone could come up with an example of a &quot;standard&quot; party of PCs facing off against the evil harm-wielding priest, and try to take into account what's going to happen to the evil priest once he walks right into the middle of the angry PCs to deliver that touch spell that doesn't even take the PC down right away...well, I think you'll see that there are factors to mitigate the putative ubermacht of Harm.&nbsp; I'm completely unconvinced by the 1-4 hp equals Death argument.&nbsp; It reminds me of playing D&amp;D in high school...&quot;I only have 3 hp left, I might as well quit now.&quot;&nbsp; Hell, that's still 13 hit points away from death if your friends are nearby.Honestly, I'm torn on this issue.&nbsp; I started the thread to see some varying viewpoints (and hoo boy, have I), but I'll certainly take the viewpoint of abusive folks with a grain of salt.&nbsp; Fly off the handle much, hmm?In response to the claim that the Harm/Heal Dichotomy is &quot;nonsense&quot;...Harm started out as the 'reversible' option of Heal.&nbsp; One spell takes away all but 1d4 hp, one gives back all but 1d4 hp.&nbsp; If that ain't symmetry, then somebody take me back to school.Again, if you give Harm a save, will you remove critical hits?&nbsp; Falling from heights?&nbsp; The drowning rule?&nbsp; None of those have saves either, and any one can result in instant death.&nbsp; No save.Now, Harm vs. the DM's precious baddies is another issue.&nbsp; I'm torn on this one too.&nbsp; It does truly suck when PCs teleport to the last encounter, cast harm, and make off with the treasure.&nbsp; Heal and Anti-magic shell are two options to counter this, but they would get old against players accustomed to using Harm (and if used as trump enough would make Harm functionally useless anyhow).To quote the Dude, &quot;This is a complex case, man...lots of facets...lots of strands...a lot of strands to keep straight in the little Duder's head, man.&quot;I can't decide.&nbsp; I can't decide!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tom Cashel, post: 360855, member: 321"] Oh, I get it, Chumpy. ;) You have one of those campaigns where everyone's "epic" level and they fight gods and stuff. How many Thors have your players killed? Do they all have Mjolnirs now? Okay, okay, just kidding. In all seriousness, we don't use D&Dg (at least not the stats) and I don't have any interest in the ELH. But again, I'll wager that's a spurious argument since Epic characters probably have ways to nullify little things like 6th level spells. But I don't know, so I'm not making any certain claims. What I [i]do[/i] know is that Harm works the same way it always has, and I've never had a problem with it. I haven't yet seen an argument here that exists outside a vacuum...i.e. taking into account Harm and one other factor, maybe two factors. If someone could come up with an example of a "standard" party of PCs facing off against the evil harm-wielding priest, and try to take into account what's going to happen to the evil priest once he walks right into the middle of the angry PCs to deliver that touch spell [i]that doesn't even take the PC down right away[/i]...well, I think you'll see that there are factors to mitigate the putative [i]ubermacht[/i] of Harm. I'm completely unconvinced by the 1-4 hp equals Death argument. It reminds me of playing D&D in high school..."I only have 3 hp left, I might as well quit now." Hell, that's still [b]13[/b] hit points away from death if your friends are nearby. [b]Honestly, I'm torn on this issue.[/b] I started the thread to see some varying viewpoints (and hoo boy, have I), but I'll certainly take the viewpoint of abusive folks with a grain of salt. Fly off the handle much, hmm? In response to the claim that the Harm/Heal Dichotomy is "nonsense"...Harm started out as the 'reversible' option of Heal. One spell takes away all but 1d4 hp, one gives back all but 1d4 hp. If that ain't symmetry, then somebody take me back to school. Again, if you give Harm a save, will you remove critical hits? Falling from heights? The drowning rule? None of those have saves either, and any one can result in instant death. [i]No save[/i]. Now, Harm vs. the DM's precious baddies is another issue. I'm torn on this one too. It does truly suck when PCs teleport to the last encounter, cast harm, and make off with the treasure. Heal and Anti-magic shell are two options to counter this, but they would get old against players accustomed to using Harm (and if used as trump enough would make Harm functionally useless anyhow). To quote the Dude, "This is a complex case, man...lots of facets...lots of strands...a lot of strands to keep straight in the little Duder's head, man." I can't decide. I can't decide! [/QUOTE]

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