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<blockquote data-quote="Al" data-source="post: 361878" data-attributes="member: 2486">Just a general comment of some of the points:&nbsp;Slightly off-topic, but I'll comment on it nevertheless.&nbsp; In order for an average 15th level wizard to have 100 hit points, he would need a constitution of 18 or greater, so that's not unfeasible with Endurance.&nbsp; However, it is relatively easy at this level to dish out a similar amount of damage: a Power Critical can deal this out in a single round, and even failing that, a barbarian with 30 str wielding a +4 greataxe can easily muster a similar amount of damage off three attacks: d12+19 damage per hit, so average damage of just over 75 points per round.&nbsp; So if the barbarian is hasted or uses Power Attack, he can dish out 100 damage in a round.&nbsp; Toughness feats, by the way, are normally regretted around level 2.&nbsp; As for clerics and wizards having equal hit points, nonsense.&nbsp; Do your wizards normally have 4 points higher constitution than your clerics?Back to the main argument:&nbsp;Fair point, but spells have to be compared against other spells.&nbsp; The issue is question is: is Harm broken?&nbsp; If the question were: is the cleric broken?, then a comparison with the fighter is reasonable.&nbsp; Since the issue is the spell, not the class, it has to be compared with other spells.&nbsp;Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds: you have a 63-in-64 chance of taking off those 13 hit points unless he makes the save.&nbsp; And with a Quickened Inflict Serious Wounds, he's probably dead even with a save.&nbsp;Fair enough.&nbsp; Allow Heal a save when used against undead.&nbsp; Symmetry maintained, no problem.&nbsp;Well, let's examine these.&nbsp; A critical hit is significantly more difficult to pull off than a touch attack, and does substantially less damage.&nbsp; Falling rules cap damage at 10d6.&nbsp; Drowning rules allow the character to hold your breath for (Con) rounds.&nbsp; Yes, they can result in instant death- but Harm (virtually) guarantees it.&nbsp;The first word in save or die is 'save'.&nbsp; Harm allows none.&nbsp; That is the issue.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Al, post: 361878, member: 2486"] Just a general comment of some of the points: Slightly off-topic, but I'll comment on it nevertheless. In order for an average 15th level wizard to have 100 hit points, he would need a constitution of 18 or greater, so that's not unfeasible with Endurance. However, it is relatively easy at this level to dish out a similar amount of damage: a Power Critical can deal this out in a single round, and even failing that, a barbarian with 30 str wielding a +4 greataxe can easily muster a similar amount of damage off three attacks: d12+19 damage per hit, so average damage of just over 75 points per round. So if the barbarian is hasted or uses Power Attack, he can dish out 100 damage in a round. Toughness feats, by the way, are normally regretted around level 2. As for clerics and wizards having equal hit points, nonsense. Do your wizards normally have 4 points higher constitution than your clerics? Back to the main argument: Fair point, but spells have to be compared against other spells. The issue is question is: is Harm broken? If the question were: is the cleric broken?, then a comparison with the fighter is reasonable. Since the issue is the spell, not the class, it has to be compared with other spells. Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds: you have a 63-in-64 chance of taking off those 13 hit points unless he makes the save. And with a Quickened Inflict Serious Wounds, he's probably dead even with a save. Fair enough. Allow Heal a save when used against undead. Symmetry maintained, no problem. Well, let's examine these. A critical hit is significantly more difficult to pull off than a touch attack, and does substantially less damage. Falling rules cap damage at 10d6. Drowning rules allow the character to hold your breath for (Con) rounds. Yes, they can result in instant death- but Harm (virtually) guarantees it. The first word in save or die is 'save'. Harm allows none. That is the issue. [/QUOTE]

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