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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Happy Monkey" data-source="post: 388905" data-attributes="member: 7785">I still want Harm to cause grief because if it doesn't it probably shouldn't be 6th level. Despite my Will save idea being akin to the inflict spell I rank Harm close to the save or die spells.Finger of death will reduce hps to -10 or some piddly damage if saved.The Harm effect of reducing hps is not so much my issue (although I do not like it), rather the almost uncontested method in which it is delivered regardless of levels.I can handle an 800hp dragon being reduced to 400 or more likely a 120hp fighter being crippled. If they fail a save I can handle hps being further reduced.The key to my thinking is that I compare Harm to death effects that can reduce hps to -10 with a failed save. Harm does less on a failed save but more on a successful roll.Um, that's messy.</blockquote>