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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
If I "fix" Attack bonuses, how do I balance magic items?
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<blockquote data-quote="Irda Ranger" data-source="post: 4699418" data-attributes="member: 1003"><p>Ok, this is partly my fault for not revealing enough information (sorry! wasn't trying to be cryptic).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, yeah. All monsters in the MM are balanced on the assumption that the PCs will have magic weapons of appropriate level. If you read the <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/251862-forked-thread-fix-stat-polarity.html" target="_blank">Fix Stat Polarity</a> thread you'll see that all the sources of attack modifiers are rolled up into a level-based attack progression, which certainly works. But you have to allow the damage output to grow along with the number of HP your opponents have; otherwise grindspace just gets worse with each level.</p><p></p><p>So my "fix" to adopt a unified method for determining attack, but keep the damage modifiers so that I don't have to re-write all the monsters in Dragon Magazine and all the MMs.</p><p></p><p>So my concern is that weapons won't be "balanced" any more once I do this. An attack bonus is a big deal in 4E, and a major balancing factor between the plain-jane "Magic Weapons" and the other weapons that have all the extra powers.</p><p></p><p>Now one possible fix is to allow the Magic Weapon to keep it's +1 to attack, and leave the Flaming Weapon at +0. But what about the weapons in between? Do they a +1 when PCs are levels 3 to 5, but drop down to +0 when PCs are levels 6 and 7? That's sort of awkward kludge.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see how the makes the Flaming Weapon equally attractive relative with the Magic Weapon. Doesn't the Flaming Weapon get 2x damage as well?</p><p></p><p>I suppose you could sort of use a formula where the weapon gets a damage bonus equal to the difference between its level and the next higher level which is a multiple of 5. Magic Weapon would get a +4 to damage and Flaming Weapon gets +0. </p><p></p><p>Or, maybe half that: +2 damage for level 1 items, +1 damage for level 2 and 3 items, and +0 damage for level 4 and 5 items. </p><p></p><p>Hitting less often but harder is usually a good trade-off, though I'm not sure where the math makes it "balanced."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, I don't blame you for that because I didn't include additional information because I thought it would be extraneous and confusing, rather than enlightening.</p><p></p><p>The "full" fix is to take attack and defense progression right off the table entirely. What you have at level 1 is more or less "it" for the rest of the game. The only advances come from feats, powers and +1 magic items (magic items never give more than +1 to any attack or defense). You continue to acquire Skills, HP and Powers (and do damage) normally.</p><p></p><p>The benefits of this house rule are as follows:</p><p></p><p>1. You don't need minions (which I hate, hate, hate). A 1st level monster can still hit a 10th level PC (even if not for too much damage) because the 10th level PCs Defenses are pretty much the same as at 1st level (maybe 1~2 points higher, but certainly hittable). So if you need a swarm of something, use 1st level monsters. Or even "weak" monsters (1st level but 1/2 normal HP).</p><p></p><p>2. PCs of greater degree of level difference can be in the same group without all sorts of headaches. For instance, you could have a 23rd level Wizard, a 10th level elven bow-ranger and human chr-warlord, 6th level human and dwarven fighters and four 1st level haflings all in the same party, and since their Defense scores are more or less the same you can attack them with the same group of orcs.</p><p></p><p>3. Ever wonder how an army can defend a city from a dragon or some dire-elephant cavalry? Now you know: <em>en masse</em>. City guards have a lower attack bonus than 1st level PCs, but only by a point or two. They can hit high-level marauding monsters (if not easily).</p><p></p><p>4. You get to keep the same magic item from 2nd level to 30th, if you so choose. You might even want to name it something, like <em>Excalibur</em> or <em>Glamdring</em>.</p><p></p><p>5. The power curve is flatter, encouraging PCs of even Epic Tier to feel they are still normal is some respects and can have normal problems (like Batman or Spiderman, rather than Superman).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Irda Ranger, post: 4699418, member: 1003"] Ok, this is partly my fault for not revealing enough information (sorry! wasn't trying to be cryptic). Well, yeah. All monsters in the MM are balanced on the assumption that the PCs will have magic weapons of appropriate level. If you read the [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/251862-forked-thread-fix-stat-polarity.html"]Fix Stat Polarity[/URL] thread you'll see that all the sources of attack modifiers are rolled up into a level-based attack progression, which certainly works. But you have to allow the damage output to grow along with the number of HP your opponents have; otherwise grindspace just gets worse with each level. So my "fix" to adopt a unified method for determining attack, but keep the damage modifiers so that I don't have to re-write all the monsters in Dragon Magazine and all the MMs. So my concern is that weapons won't be "balanced" any more once I do this. An attack bonus is a big deal in 4E, and a major balancing factor between the plain-jane "Magic Weapons" and the other weapons that have all the extra powers. Now one possible fix is to allow the Magic Weapon to keep it's +1 to attack, and leave the Flaming Weapon at +0. But what about the weapons in between? Do they a +1 when PCs are levels 3 to 5, but drop down to +0 when PCs are levels 6 and 7? That's sort of awkward kludge. I don't see how the makes the Flaming Weapon equally attractive relative with the Magic Weapon. Doesn't the Flaming Weapon get 2x damage as well? I suppose you could sort of use a formula where the weapon gets a damage bonus equal to the difference between its level and the next higher level which is a multiple of 5. Magic Weapon would get a +4 to damage and Flaming Weapon gets +0. Or, maybe half that: +2 damage for level 1 items, +1 damage for level 2 and 3 items, and +0 damage for level 4 and 5 items. Hitting less often but harder is usually a good trade-off, though I'm not sure where the math makes it "balanced." Well, I don't blame you for that because I didn't include additional information because I thought it would be extraneous and confusing, rather than enlightening. The "full" fix is to take attack and defense progression right off the table entirely. What you have at level 1 is more or less "it" for the rest of the game. The only advances come from feats, powers and +1 magic items (magic items never give more than +1 to any attack or defense). You continue to acquire Skills, HP and Powers (and do damage) normally. The benefits of this house rule are as follows: 1. You don't need minions (which I hate, hate, hate). A 1st level monster can still hit a 10th level PC (even if not for too much damage) because the 10th level PCs Defenses are pretty much the same as at 1st level (maybe 1~2 points higher, but certainly hittable). So if you need a swarm of something, use 1st level monsters. Or even "weak" monsters (1st level but 1/2 normal HP). 2. PCs of greater degree of level difference can be in the same group without all sorts of headaches. For instance, you could have a 23rd level Wizard, a 10th level elven bow-ranger and human chr-warlord, 6th level human and dwarven fighters and four 1st level haflings all in the same party, and since their Defense scores are more or less the same you can attack them with the same group of orcs. 3. Ever wonder how an army can defend a city from a dragon or some dire-elephant cavalry? Now you know: [I]en masse[/I]. City guards have a lower attack bonus than 1st level PCs, but only by a point or two. They can hit high-level marauding monsters (if not easily). 4. You get to keep the same magic item from 2nd level to 30th, if you so choose. You might even want to name it something, like [I]Excalibur[/I] or [I]Glamdring[/I]. 5. The power curve is flatter, encouraging PCs of even Epic Tier to feel they are still normal is some respects and can have normal problems (like Batman or Spiderman, rather than Superman). [/QUOTE]
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If I "fix" Attack bonuses, how do I balance magic items?
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