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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 5595247" data-attributes="member: 67338">I once again call BS...what do you mean by optimal? does the fact that I dont take sup weapons or implments 9/10 times and take expertise less then half of my characters count? becuse I can take lots of good feats and still make food characters that can hold there own...or do you mean taking 8 skill training/skill focis feats?um a dagger rouge with no feats...over all 30 levelsa double long sword rangeran avenger with just about any 2 handed weapona Barbarian with any 2 handed weapon I can make a level 1-15 atleast of any of them with inherant bonus and no feats can all throw striker level damageI think I could (not sure) do the same with a sorcerer.Monk and warlock would be hard...  and this is a big sticking point..so I will skip the argument for this (god knows there are plenty of other threads for the attack thing) BS...totaly tacticle play allows any leader (well maybe not shamn) can do just fine with no buffs please tell me this is a joke... what build could possible fail EVERY skill challange...I can see failing 1 of the 3 types (physical, mental, or social) but it is immpossible to have 3 skills at +5 (You know trained) and not have atleast a good chance... and I play heroes that don't optimaize at every turn...and still am a hero.OK, but I can play any weapon useing class, have a 16 in my prime stat (after race) and a 14 in my second stat (after race) and take feats that no optimizer takes...and still meat that metric...so  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" />do you really belive that optimization is the only way to play?ok, maybe I have miss read you up till now...but you do understand base line is very low in 4e  The funny part is that is the system I am playing (99% raw 4e)I have seen builds with 2 or 3 'dead' feats and still be viable and useful...and NOT A BURDENtell me what level character should I make to show you that I can make a useful non burdemn with out optimization...just give me a role and a level...</blockquote>

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