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<blockquote data-quote="Galloglaich" data-source="post: 5332748" data-attributes="member: 77019">But you are missing my point.&nbsp; I don't use things like cloakers in my campaigns.&nbsp; I don't think &quot;Cloakers=Fantasy&quot;&nbsp; I don't find cloakers in the fantasy literature which defined the genre; Jack Vance or Fritz Lieber or Robert E. Howard or Lovecraft or Moorcock or Clark Ashton Smith.&nbsp;&nbsp; For that matter I never felt obligated to use all the monsters in the Monster Manual or even to use monsters from Greek Mythology and Tolkein in the same campaign.It's a similar comparison between a made-for-Sci-Fi-Channel fantasy movie about radioactive gargoyles or something, vs. a film such as, say Princess Bride or Stara Basn.&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Mansquito&quot; has a very limited appeal, only people already very into the Sci Genre could sit through that unless they were drunk.&nbsp; My girlfriend definitely won't watch it.&nbsp; By comparison, Alien or Bladerunner, or Princess Bride, have a very wide appeal (and therefore reached a wide audience).&nbsp; I would similarly like to see RPGs, particularly DnD, reach a wider audience in terms of demographics than they do today.&quot;Mansquito&quot; requires a different level of suspension of disbelief than Alien.&nbsp; The latter is more my idea of the level of 'fantasy' that I enjoy in an RPG. Even a more campy film like&nbsp; Princess Bride which may be more 'high magic' than Alien or Stara Basn, is still based (not coincidentally) on an understanding of everything from real historical fencing techniques to established literary tropes, and had it's own plausible internal logic that made sense on an adult level.&nbsp; To me it didn't &quot;break&quot; reality, it just bent it. You can argue that literally anything is subjective including whether the sky is blue, at some level you have to fish or cut bait.&nbsp;&nbsp; Five years ago I wrote a game to prove that an RpG combat system can be both fast paced and realistic, without being complicated or using tons of variables.&nbsp; It has been put to the test and I think I've made my point.&nbsp; Realism does not equal complexity, that is a false dichotomy; realism is simply the basis of the underlying pattern.&nbsp; You as a game designer (or a DM) can choose the level of abstraction you want, and choose what factors you want to bend.&nbsp; So long as you are doing so intelligently it should still feel right. The reason we base so many things in games on real or historical systems is because they have their own internal consistency, their own balance, they have the feel of the rhythms of real life.&nbsp; A fight based on real martial arts, whether it's got 5 variables or 500, is more fun to me than one based on arbitrary gibberish.&nbsp; You can call it subjective if you like but I think it's an objective reality.&nbsp; That is why in Fantasy and Sci Fi genres it's generally better to stretch reality (and mythology) than to re-invent it, which is why the default Fantasy genre involves men with swords slaying beasts rather than (as someone once put it) amoebas with health-rays building immune systems inside giant space arachnids*.&nbsp;&nbsp; G.* though who knows, that could be a fun game</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Galloglaich, post: 5332748, member: 77019"] But you are missing my point. I don't use things like cloakers in my campaigns. I don't think "Cloakers=Fantasy" I don't find cloakers in the fantasy literature which defined the genre; Jack Vance or Fritz Lieber or Robert E. Howard or Lovecraft or Moorcock or Clark Ashton Smith. For that matter I never felt obligated to use all the monsters in the Monster Manual or even to use monsters from Greek Mythology and Tolkein in the same campaign. It's a similar comparison between a made-for-Sci-Fi-Channel fantasy movie about radioactive gargoyles or something, vs. a film such as, say Princess Bride or Stara Basn. "Mansquito" has a very limited appeal, only people already very into the Sci Genre could sit through that unless they were drunk. My girlfriend definitely won't watch it. By comparison, Alien or Bladerunner, or Princess Bride, have a very wide appeal (and therefore reached a wide audience). I would similarly like to see RPGs, particularly DnD, reach a wider audience in terms of demographics than they do today. "Mansquito" requires a different level of suspension of disbelief than Alien. The latter is more my idea of the level of 'fantasy' that I enjoy in an RPG. Even a more campy film like Princess Bride which may be more 'high magic' than Alien or Stara Basn, is still based (not coincidentally) on an understanding of everything from real historical fencing techniques to established literary tropes, and had it's own plausible internal logic that made sense on an adult level. To me it didn't "break" reality, it just bent it. You can argue that literally anything is subjective including whether the sky is blue, at some level you have to fish or cut bait. Five years ago I wrote a game to prove that an RpG combat system can be both fast paced and realistic, without being complicated or using tons of variables. It has been put to the test and I think I've made my point. Realism does [I]not[/I] equal complexity, that is a [B]false dichotomy[/B]; realism is simply the basis of the underlying pattern. You as a game designer (or a DM) can choose the level of abstraction you want, and choose what factors you want to bend. So long as you are doing so intelligently it should still feel right. The reason we base so many things in games on real or historical systems is because they have their own internal consistency, their own balance, they have the feel of the rhythms of real life. A fight based on real martial arts, whether it's got 5 variables or 500, is more fun to me than one based on arbitrary gibberish. You can call it subjective if you like but I think it's an objective reality. That is why in Fantasy and Sci Fi genres it's generally better to [I]stretch[/I] reality (and mythology) than to re-invent it, which is why the default Fantasy genre involves men with swords slaying beasts rather than (as someone once put it) amoebas with health-rays building immune systems inside giant space arachnids*. G. * though who knows, that could be a fun game [/QUOTE]

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